Is Moving Your €€ out of Ireland unpatriotic??

kdoc

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I depend on mine probably more than most as I have no other form of income.
Btw, elswhere on AAM, Brendan recommends reducing the risk by diversifying.
 

WizardDr

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When the IMF were commenting on Irelands probelms with the Bond Markets - they used the word 'perception' about 14 times in their report. Why did they use that word?

When I read some of the detailed central bank, ESRI, Garret Fitzgerald, John Fitzgerald, Marc Coleman articles, I get a far more positive view of Ireland than maybe some of you.

My money stays here - and if I had more I would be buying Irish Government Bonds.

Every euro that leaves the domestic system has to be replaced ..by er borrowings. Confidence is relative.
 

UFC

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When the IMF were commenting on Irelands probelms with the Bond Markets - they used the word 'perception' about 14 times in their report. Why did they use that word?

When I read some of the detailed central bank, ESRI, Garret Fitzgerald, John Fitzgerald, Marc Coleman articles, I get a far more positive view of Ireland than maybe some of you.

My money stays here - and if I had more I would be buying Irish Government Bonds.

Every euro that leaves the domestic system has to be replaced ..by er borrowings. Confidence is relative.
Ah come on now...

Marc Coleman has proven himself to be completely awful at predicting anything ("The best is yet to come...") and you'd want to be mad to be investing your hard earned money in an Irish government bond...!

The reality is Ireland is totally broken. I'd even go as far as saying we are a Kleptocracy.
 

horusd

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When the IMF were commenting on Irelands probelms with the Bond Markets - they used the word 'perception' about 14 times in their report. Why did they use that word?

When I read some of the detailed central bank, ESRI, Garret Fitzgerald, John Fitzgerald, Marc Coleman articles, I get a far more positive view of Ireland than maybe some of you.

My money stays here - and if I had more I would be buying Irish Government Bonds.

Every euro that leaves the domestic system has to be replaced ..by er borrowings. Confidence is relative.

So in effect you are saying that based on your opinion, gleaned from your readings of various reports and commentators you find credible, you conclude that your money is secure. You are so certain you would even buy more bonds. Fair enough - it's your money & therefore your call.

But based on this line of argument, the issue of patriotism isn't your motivation and doesn't arise, your judgement is based on your assessment of risk. You have made a judgement call, deemed it a safe bet, and acted on that. Consistent with the same line of argument you use, others who arrive at a different conclusion are perfectly entitled to do so.
 
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WizardDr

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Given that Government Gilts or Bonds have a fixed coupon, when we hear that bonds are yielding 7% then the original value of the bond say €100 is trading in the market at less than this say €80. So if retail investors were able to buy these easily - when they are eevntually redeemed they will be at €100 as well an effective 7% return on the original investment. (THis is what Europe will eventually do - buy back the bonds at less tah face value and then we pay the par value. Why cant we do the same?)

The issue of patriotism does arise. Self interest in this case is national sabotage whereas if it were looked at logically we could collectively all benefit.

People should read some of these reports - thats
 
O

old westie

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On the basis that sterling is starting to get weak against the Euro, we can expect a flow of Euro's out of ireland into Northern Ireland.
One would be much safer with your money outside the pigs grouping of euro members. As regards patriotism there is not much of it evident in the EU, they borrow money for about 2-3 % and then give it to us at 5-6 % in OUR hour of need. Protect oneself.
 

Troy McClure

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Given that Government Gilts or Bonds have a fixed coupon, when we hear that bonds are yielding 7% then the original value of the bond say €100 is trading in the market at less than this say €80. So if retail investors were able to buy these easily - when they are eevntually redeemed they will be at €100 as well an effective 7% return on the original investment. (THis is what Europe will eventually do - buy back the bonds at less tah face value and then we pay the par value. Why cant we do the same?)

The issue of patriotism does arise. Self interest in this case is national sabotage whereas if it were looked at logically we could collectively all benefit.

People should read some of these reports - thats
Sounds like advice from someone at the dept of finance... Now tell us the IMF sre not really here. The issue of patriotism arose when useless politicians and bankers threw caution, and the country's future, to the wind for their own needs. The National sabotage was back then.



International Institutional depositors removed 70billion from Irish banks in 2010. Small depositors removed 14billion.. and you call them unpatriotic. With such a reality they would be foolish to do otherwise. The Irish banking system is a zombie now and small depositors will make little difference to that now. However they would be idiots to be the last man standing. A position they are already taking up as the taxpayers paying for the bailout for these crooks.

Marc Coleman LOL! the author of the 'best is yet to come'... that book was a look into the future!! LOL

Please!.. wake up!
 

WizardDr

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Troy

Given that I wrote about Ireland property prices being overdone in 2001 - just maybe ...you ought to read some of the material ..
 

Troy McClure

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Troy

Given that I wrote about Ireland property prices being overdone in 2001 - just maybe ...you ought to read some of the material ..
Oh! That makes a big difference. silly me!!

Reason is not subjective unless there is vestive interest. It's not me that seems to have an inability to listen.
 

horusd

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The issue of patriotism does arise. Self interest in this case is national sabotage whereas if it were looked at logically we could collectively all benefit.

Wizard, believe me when I say I am not being pedantic, but:

1. What you view as being in the "national interest" is based on your belief in one potential scenario. But what you suggest & believe is not neccessarily true. A neccessarily true statement is one which cannot be false without being a contradiction (a tautology), ie all black dogs are black. Others may arrive validly at a different conclusion, and a different interpretation of patriotism.

2. Sabotage implies a deliberate, knowing and concerted effort on the part of a single person or group to destroy or undermine something. This simply does not apply in this context because clearly people moving their money abroad are not motivated by an intent to sabotage anything, Rather they are motivated by concerns & worries. Nor are they acting in concert with each other to sabotage anything. It would be more correct to say that the effect of withdrawals may be determential to Irish banking and it may be in all our interests to act as you suggest - but that is a different statement altogether. And one I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with per se.

Using emotive terms like patriotism & sabotage in this context and in such absolute ways is not helpful.
 
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UFC

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Wizard, believe me when I say I am not being pedantic, but:

1. What you view as being in the "national interest" is based on your belief in one potential scenario. But what you suggest & believe is not neccessarily true. A neccessarily true statement is one which cannot be false without being a contradiction (a tautology), ie all black dogs are black. Others may arrive validly at a different conclusion, and a different interpretation of patriotism.

2. Sabotage implies a deliberate, knowing and concerted effort on the part of a single person or group to destroy or undermine something. This simply does not apply in this context because clearly people moving their money abroad are not motivated by an intent to sabotage anything, Rather they are motivated by concerns & worries. Nor are they acting in concert with each other to sabotage anything. It would be more correct to say that the effect of withdrawals may be determential to Irish banking and it may be in all our interests to act as you suggest - but that is a different statement altogether. And one I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with per se.

Using emotive terms like patriotism & sabotage in this context and in such absolute ways is not helpful.
Stop talking sense, you're not allowed do that on the internet...
 

WizardDr

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What irritates me is instead of commenting on issues, some posters here think attacking the poster is a clever strategy. All it does is maybe confirm that some views where they conflict with your own are less solid than you originally think - get personal and that will sort it out.

Anyway here is another view:
[This view may help those who feel 'patriotism' and 'sabotage' are too emotive. The result of people moving their deposits will lead to further dependency on Europe ...er..that sounds really weak compared to hair raising sabotage. ]



Eurozone rescue fund hopes lift bond investors – David Oakley – Financial Times 25/1/11

• Speculation that there are plans to give the €440bn European financial stability facility more firepower.
• Improvements in market since start of year are based on this.
• One option - Increase its ability to issue AAA securities from €225bn as this is the amount guaranteed by the countries with that rating but would need national parliament ratification.
• 2nd option Giving EFSF powers to buy government and bank bonds of countries running into difficulties. This would be very effective. Also peripheral countries could also buy back their own debt at market prices –which are trading at hefty discounts to issue prices – by using loans from EFSF.
• This would immediately help the Debt/GDP ratio.
• This could see bond prices rise to eliminate what is effectively arbitrage.
• Third option is to lower the cost of bailout loans which would directly facilitate the banking situation.
 

WizardDr

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So if every EURO moving out of the systen has to be replaced..what is the solution ..and UFC & Troy ..lets hear some of your suggestions - if you have any.
 

Troy McClure

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The personal approach didn't work for you then. One gets the impression you simply don’t see the point. It's a dogma with a slant I'll give ya that. Might not be the real world but I don’t think that’s important to you.

We ARE completely dependent on Europe. Make your peace with that. We are broke and our banks are broke and have not functioned for over a year now. The importance of replacing every Euro was only an issue a year ago. It makes no difference now. The institutional investors, which were paramount, are gone.

As for 'Euro zone rescue fund hopes lift bond investors' quote, this has nothing to do with Ireland. Which explains why Irish bond yields are consistently still over 9%.
Whats right for Europe is not whats right for Ireland. Which explains their insistence on not wanting to burn senior bondholders. They are way more concerned with European banks getting burned than rescuing Ireland. European banks are owed over 110billion by Irish banks. This is the only reason they ECB supported Irish banks. Now they want the Irish taxpayer to pay for it. These banks are completely knackered and they are pulling down the state.

You talk like they can regain a workable balance sheet with John Doe deposits. You can run with that if you like, but I believe that massively misguided and will not keep money in these banks, until the are hugely restructured with new owners. The same senior bondholders whom the taxpayer is bailing out want nothing to do with these banks now, but you think we should. The taxpayer is taking their risk, so they should risk their savings also? Not Realistic

Unless the the term of the 'bailout' Loan is put out over 20 years instead of 4 or the interest rate is reduced we are going to default.

The sovereign WILL default under current conditions. It's just way too much for Ireland to handle. Depositors will very likely be on the hook. I will think of you on that day. I suggest stop quoting the people you want to believe or that have little revelence to Ireland, but look at what is actually unfolding here.
 

kdoc

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In the event of default or restructuring would having your money in foreign banks based in Ireland make any difference?
 

WizardDr

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@Troy

So if the budget deficit disappeared and we were in surplus ..as in repaying rather than borrowing..you are of the view that the bank bailout will still take down the country?

Right I get your thinking now.
 

Troy McClure

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And if my aunt had liathroidí, she'd be my uncle..

This is as unlikely to happen however as the buget deficit disappearing.

In the real world we are going to go broke before we hit any surplus.
It's not a bailout it's a 'Loan' and it wont cunjure any Uncles regardless of how you try dress the poor auld Aunt.
 

bullworth

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Its' unpatriotic for a citizen to leave his money under the control of traitorous crooks. Each citizen who allows his wealth to be destroyed and stolen has an accumulative effect resulting in Ireland becoming a nation of paupers. The worst is yet to come. Protect what you have against fraud, against theft, against unfair taxes and against inflation.
 
C

celebtastic

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Good article in the Sunday Times Money section today on where to get the best rates on offshore accounts, and how to open an account in Germany
 
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