Is Mary Lou in trouble now?

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As is also the case in the Assembly in Northern Ireland. Those poor buggers didn't even know what they were getting paid or what expenses were being claimed on their behalf as they had no access to the bank accounts SF set up for their wages and expense to be paid into. That's, obviously, doesn't happen in normal political parties.

I would agree with that. It all appeared a bit of a shambles. Arthur Morgan, TD for Louth in early 2000's summed up SF's participation in Dáil Éireann - "we hadn't a clue what we were doing".

I understand that it has been quietly modified now and more oversight.
There is no longer an "average industrial wage" - whatever that is, and whose stats do rely on? The CSO, Central Bank, average industrial wage of the constituency you represent?

I like the idea of elected parliamentarians kicking back into the party branch for local organisation. Many actually do across all-parties but in a more informal, even less transparent way. For eg - a TD would often contribute towards community groups, GAA, soccer, arts and culture, charity etc. The quid pro-quo is the newspaper shoot at the fundraiser, the charity event etc.

I have no issue with that, that is putting your money where your mouth is and respect to all elected members, across all parties, that kick-back their income into local communities. SF is more rigid in that it commits elected members to pay back into the party constituency offices.

Overall, its great to see.
 
Could you provide some examples of sitting parliamentary members of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael (young or old) criticising the party or leadership either directly or indirectly?

You already provided some.

And still you have not provided a single one for a sitting SF representative.

The pledge is a commitment in the rules for elected members to adhere to the instructions and directions of the Ard Comhairle - i.e. this is the Parliamentary Whip system which I beginning to think you may not understand?

Ad hominems are not required if the argument is sound. The SF pledge is not the same as anything in the other parties and is not a simple application of a whip system.


There is no point in being on a discussion forum and giving one-syllable answers, especially where someone has taken the time to cite references. Others here are discussing things in good faith and this sort of behaviour puts people off.
 
You already provided some.

I have provided 1 sitting TD in Fianna Fáil (and in the context of his position) , 0 in Fine Gael.

In good faith, can you provide any others?
And still you have not provided a single one for a sitting SF representative.
There are 2 sitting TD's that were elected on the SF ticket mentioned.

One defied the party whip (Toibín) and has formed his own party.
The other (Stanley) resigned following allegations of serious nature and his counter-allegations criticising SF party/leadership handling of the affair.

Thats 3 examples of TD's criticising their respective party leadership. 2 from SF, 1 from all the other parties put together.

In good faith, can you provide any other examples, at all? I cannot.

The SF pledge is not the same as anything in the other parties and is not a simple application of a whip system.

In good faith, can you provide the actual pledge? And not your interpretation of what you think the pledge is?

In good faith, have you read the Constitutions of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, in particular the parts where it is a requirement of elected member of the party to pledge themselves to the Ard Comhairle/Executive?

If not, to help you on your way, here is the Fine Gael Constitution:

Rule 44A. (xv) To require that all members of the Party offering themselves for election or co-option
and all Public Representatives taking the Party Whip shall take a Party Pledge in terms laid down by the Executive Council before their selection as candidates for election or co-option or before the Whip is extended to them.


You should read the rest of rule 44A, considering your earlier claims of local branch autonomy.
There is no point in being on a discussion forum and giving one-syllable answers,

You criticised me for a "500 word essay"!

The answers to your questions were contained within. I have now expanded for further clarity.

In brief: SF, FF, FG

- elected candidates are all required to abide by their the instructions and directions of their respective Ard Comhairle.
- local branches have autonomy on local issues, campaigns and can put forward prospective candidates, but the final say rests with the Ard Comhairle.

:SF;

- there is no 'Army Council' directing or controlling highly experienced and politically astute SF members who are seasoned electoral campaigners and it is the stuff of Eoghan Harris paranioa, anyone who suggests otherwise (not accusing you of this, but some follow-on comments are not worthy of response).

- By all PSNI/MI5 etc security assessments, the so-called "army council" has no army, no capability of raising an army, and is involved in exclusively democratic and political programs.

- In the South; the Garda and security assessment is there no "army council" of the IRA, at all! That assessment was 10yrs ago and there appears to have been no need to update it.

Others here are discussing things in good faith

In good faith, others citing their "dunce school mates" or "sciencetologists" or "selling's one one's soul to the devil", is not a discussion in good faith on their part.

Respectfully, you have not descended to this infantile barb so that is why I respond.

I stand by my contention - SF has morphed into another normal, regular Irish political party.
 
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I should have heeded your advice!!

What advice are you getting?

Are you @arbitron being directed by anonymous posters to give your opinion?

Simple question, can you provide some examples of sitting parliamentary members of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael (young or old) criticising the party or leadership either directly or indirectly?

If you cannot, outside the one provided to you for FF, then by logic there is no difference between SF and other parliamentary parties in this respect?

Is that not a simple point to agree on? In good faith?
 
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Simple question, can you provide some examples of sitting parliamentary members of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael (young or old) criticising the party or leadership either directly or indirectly?
Willie O'Dea, Eamon O'Cuív and James O'Connor have all openly criticised the leadership of FF while sitting TD's. O'Cuív called for a new leader when FF went into coalition with FG. O'Dea and O'Connor are currently sitting TD's.
 
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