Is Mary Lou in trouble now?

[Marsupial]

Im not sure why you are trying to belittle my income?

Amd I'm puzzled as to why you seem to be unaware of the significance of an exclamation mark after a comment. Why not have a word with teacher?

I was under the impression that Moore was grateful to many in Sinn Fein and former IRA for their co-operation with the book?

I hadn't realised that Moore was hoping to be in government after the next election. (Which is what the comment of mine that that you quoted relates to.)

 

[Sister Sara]

I hadn't realised that Moore was hoping to be in government after the next election. (Which is what the comment of mine that that you quoted relates to.)

Who suggested that? That is obvious.

I've read 6 chapters. Credit to Moore to the fluidity in her writing.

By and large, she is just regurgitating any amount of historical accounts already in the public domain for an age. If this whole affair was a fictional story she could be liable for plagiarism.
But as it is a factual account of political affairs and IRA activities, you might give me a heads up as to when the "scary" parts emerge?

Moore contends that she wants to write a "fair and accurate history of the recent history of the most popular political party without fear of favour."

In fairness to Moore, she does capture, or reference, all of the significant events within SF/IRA since early 1970's. And context is of course important.
But the SF of 1970's, 1980's, 1990's was not exactly the "most popular political party" was it? For most part it barely existed.

So, on the one hand considering the IRA is gone and SF is now the most popular political party in recent history (Aoife Moore) and SF want to enter government north and south, why on earth would MLMcD entertain her on regurgitating to very obvious bloody and foul activities of IRA members from the past that are already documented ad nauseum?

To make an impact, of sorts, she could rely on testimony of wholly anonymous party hacks and former IRA members who would prefer not to be identified but couldn't help revealing "secrets" over a tea-break and a KitKatt.

Honestly, the "revelations" are like something you hear in the office canteen or over a water-cooler discussion.

I stand by my point - the sands have shifted. SF administer a British parliament in Ireland. Gerry Kelly sits on the PSNI Policing Board.

As a political party they talk out both sides of their butt-cheeks. Saying one thing in opposition in the Dáil and implementing the opposite when in power in Stormont.
Security assessments endorse there is no subversive threat, or even a capability of it.

Like I said, a normal political party - say one thing when in opposition, and do the other when in power.

 

[arbitron]

a normal political party

This is not true. The Ard Comhairle/Coiste Seasta setup centralises power in a way not seen in any other party.

And no other party is as quick to send a solicitor letter to a newspaper or an opponent.

the IRA is gone

It might be disbanded but there are elected members of Sinn Féin who seem to have more sympathy for convicted IRA killers than victims and their families.

 

[Sister Sara]

The Ard Comhairle/Coiste Seasta setup centralises power in a way not seen in any other party.

The Ard Comhairle is the governing decision-making body of SF exactly the same as the FF or FG Ard Comhairle, or the Labour Party National Executive.

 

[redstar]

FF/FG/Lab don't have an army council overseeing their Ard Comhairle.

Does the SF army council exist ? yes or no
I'm not seeing 'no' in this article at least...why - its an easy question to answer surely?

‘No armed groups should exist in this day and age’ – O’Neill | BreakingNews

The First Minister was asked whether the IRA Army Council currently has any influence over Sinn Fein.

www.breakingnews.ie

 

[Purple]

FF/FG/Lab don't have an army council overseeing their Ard Comhairle.

Does the SF army council exist ? yes or no
I'm not seeing 'no' in this article at least...why - its an easy question to answer surely?

Not if the Army Council hasn't told the Ard Comhairle how to answer that question...

 

[Marsupial]

I find it hard to imagine reading a book when one already knows what one thinks of its content and has already rejected anything uncomfortable that one may encounter within its pages. What an utter waste of one's time!

Anyway, onto the next book from the large box purchased for a song from my local charity shop!

Heiress, Rebel, Vigilante, Bomber: The Extraordinary Life of Rose Dugdale by Sean O'Driscoll

Another unapologetic SF/IRA "legend" who appears to have derived even more pleasure from murdering people than Putin does.

Good preview of it here:

David McCullagh on the extraordinary life of Rose Dugdale

www.rte.ie

- so I know what to expect.

 

[arbitron]

The Ard Comhairle is the governing decision-making body of SF exactly the same as the FF or FG Ard Comhairle, or the Labour Party National Executive.

They are similar in name only. Local branches of other parties have much more autonomy. Other parties are much more transparent and have much less central control over candidate selection, communications, etc.

North Korea and the Netherlands both have parliaments but no-one would suggest that they work in the same way...

 

[Sister Sara]

Other parties are much more transparent and have much less central control over candidate selection, communications, etc.

Have you been watching the news lately? With the FF selection process for President?

Pat the Cope Gallagher said it was unacceptable as a TD of 38yrs that his opinion was not sought out prior to nominations. He said it was a "contrived majority", "heavily influnced" by the leadership.
Billy Kelleher - "integrity of the Presidential Election has been undermined".

Local branches have little to zero autonomy. What point an Ard Comhairle and an Ard Fheis if local branches can go on solo-runs on national policies?

All the big parties have track records of their Ard Comhairle parachuting election candidates into constituency's over the heads of the local cumann.
SF probably more in recent times as it establishes itself as a big party, but the longer established parties use the Ard Comhairle to keep the reigns on the party message and strategy.

 

[arbitron]

Pat the Cope Gallagher said it was unacceptable as a TD of 38yrs that his opinion was not sought out prior to nominations. He said it was a "contrived majority", "heavily influnced" by the leadership.
Billy Kelleher - "integrity of the Presidential Election has been undermined".

This is a perfect example of a glaring difference between SF and other parties. I cannot recall the last time a SF elected representative was allowed to criticise the party or leadership in public.

Local branches of other parties have far more autonomy, including selecting candidates and bringin motions to ard fheiseanna. All parties have interfered with candidate selection on occasion but it is rare, compared to SF where it is always done centrally.

Even once they are elected, SF TDs do not get free rein to choose their own staff, which is done centrally, and those staff have a direct reporting structure to ard comhaire/coiste seasta. There is nothing like this in any other party.

 

[Sister Sara]

This is a perfect example of a glaring difference between SF and other parties. I cannot recall the last time a SF elected representative was allowed to criticise the party or leadership in public.

I think you are hedging your bets too much on the above. Pat 'The Cope' is effectively an elder of the party of high esteem with little prospect of leading any future prominent positions in FF.

Kellehers criticism, and others such as Chambers and O'Brien clearly avoided any direct criticism of the party leadership and instead the focus was on the party's selection processes - ie, too little autonomy for members and too much centralised power.

Local branches in Sinn Fein have autonomy for proposing candidates who often selected but the final decision rests with the Ard Comhairle and this is no different to Fianna Fail or Fine Gael.

SF TD's do absolutely get to pick their own staff for Leinster House but again, if a long-standing officer of high quality is available they may be offered a role over the elected TD's less experienced personal choice. Again, its no different to how Fianna Fail and Fine Gael work.

 

[Purple]

Even once they are elected, SF TDs do not get free rein to choose their own staff, which is done centrally, and those staff have a direct reporting structure to ard comhaire/coiste seasta. There is nothing like this in any other party.

As is also the case in the Assembly in Northern Ireland. Those poor buggers didn't even know what they were getting paid or what expenses were being claimed on their behalf as they had no access to the bank accounts SF set up for their wages and expense to be paid into. That's, obviously, doesn't happen in normal political parties.

 

[Purple]

SF TD's do absolutely get to pick their own staff for Leinster House but again, if a long-standing officer of high quality is available they may be offered a role over the elected TD's less experienced personal choice. Again, its no different to how Fianna Fail and Fine Gael work.

The Army Council still appoint one of their lads to act as their eyes and ears in the office of every TD. A letter day Commissar.

 

[arbitron]

I think you are hedging your bets too much on the above. Pat 'The Cope' is effectively an elder of the party of high esteem with little prospect of leading any future prominent positions in FF.

Kellehers criticism, and others such as Chambers and O'Brien clearly avoided any direct criticism of the party leadership and instead the focus was on the party's selection processes - ie, too little autonomy for members and too much centralised power.

I see, so Pat The Cope doesn't count because he is older and not running for leadership, Kelleher and others don't count because the criticism is indirect. This is known as moving the goalposts.

Could we have some examples of sitting SF representatives (young or old) criticising the party or leadership either directly or indirectly?

Local branches in Sinn Fein have autonomy for proposing candidates who often selected but the final decision rests with the Ard Comhairle and this is no different to Fianna Fail or Fine Gael.

SF are Leninist democratic centralists. They do not operate the same way as any other party in the Oireachtas. Which other party makes their people sign a pledge of allegiance that they will not criticise the party?

McDonald and SF candidates sign pledge to be guided by ardchomhairle

Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has signed a pledge, along with all of her party's candidates, to be guided by instructions from its ruling body - despite insisting that she does not "take instruction from anyone".

SF TD's do absolutely get to pick their own staff for Leinster House but again, if a long-standing officer of high quality is available they may be offered a role over the elected TD's less experienced personal choice. Again, its no different to how Fianna Fail and Fine Gael work.

So Peadar, Carol, and Violet are all wrong?

Sinn Féin TDs have 'zero' influence and policies are handed down, says Tóibín

Sinn Féin TDs have "zero" influence over policy decisions despite being elected to the Dáil, according to a former party member.

In a rare insight into how the secretive party works, Mr Tóibín said most Sinn Féin TDs are not permitted to choose their own staff members. Instead, he said the party picks their parliamentary assistants who can have even more influence than the TDs they are working for.

Mr Tóibín said he knew of one TD who was effectively directed to make Dáil speeches by their assistant as she did not agree with the policy.

Former Sinn Féin TDs say party did not let them choose staff

Two former Sinn Féin TDs have claimed the party did not allow its Dáil deputies to pick their own staff to work with them in Leinster House.

Peadar Tóibín and Carol Nolan ... said party officials gave them no input into what staff they hired. It is a departure from the practice usually employed by most other political parties in the Dáil, which allow their TDs and senators to recruit their own staff.

It comes in the wake of similar claims by Clare TD Violet- Anne Wynne, who resigned from Sinn Féin last week.

 

[Purple]

@arbitron, talking to Sinn Fein members about their party is like talking to Scientologists about their organisation. Anyone who leaves Scientology is an SP (Suppressive Person) and an enemy of the organisation. Otherwise well meaning and nice people become vociferous about any perceived slight on their cult. The Shinners are more than a bit like that.

 

[Marsupial]

The Shinners are more than a bit like that.

Yep. Even TDs who were driven out of the Party (the likes of Brian Stanley comes to mind) rarely criticise them very much.

I assume that it's because when one has sold one's soul to the devil, one doesn't want it to be put through Slab's mincer.

 

[Firefly]

My viewpoint is that SF has morphed into a regular political party.

SF give the pretence of a regular party. At the top, they come across as polished & reasonable. Peel a few layers off the onion though and, like a real onion, your eyes will water.

A fair few dunces in my school follow SF. I would shudder to think of the damage they would inflict at the wheel. I'm sure the finacially worse off, on a proportionate basis, would do better under SF, but SF would damage the economy so much that the cake would be reduced to a bun, so everyone would actually be worse off. Thankfully, enough of the lectorate can see through right through them.

 

[Sister Sara]

so Pat The Cope doesn't count because he is older and not running for leadership, Kelleher and others don't count because the criticism is indirect.

Of course Pat The Cope counts but he is doing it from a position where he knows there is little, if any, effective sanction to be imposed on him.
Therefore, he can say out loud what many of his colleagues are probably thinking.

Kelleher still has designs on high office, on this occasion it was President. Maybe next time some high office in Europe? His prospects will diminish pretty quickly as a FF candidate for, anything, if he is openly attacking his leader.

After a 5 hour party meeting in which the party leader apologised and took full responsibility is it not strange that, Gallagher aside, there is not one other member of the FF parliamentary party directly critical of Martins handling of the Gavin nomination?

I guess you understand how parliamentary politics works? The whip-system?
You toe-the-line and stay on message or get out!
You vote in accordance to the instructions provided to you by the your party "whip".

Votes of 'free conscious' are rarely permitted in Irish parliamentary politics. Defying the whip can lead to serious consequences and be hugely damaging to career in politics.

What Peadar Toibín and other former members of SF are fundamentally referring to is the promise that SF would reform and radicalise Irish politics. A revoluntionary movement that would have a leadership representative of the grassroots views.

Instead, what he found was that as SF grew bigger it simply adjusted its parliamentary structures to reflect the functioning of other parties.
Hence the number of internal feuds, squabbles and 'top-down' dictats within SF that occurred in recent years.

Ironically it was Peadar himself who was afforded a vote of free conscious by SF for the abortion referendum. Toibín campaigned for the 'No' campaign with approval from SF leadership. The party campaigned for 'Yes'.

It was afterwards, and on the Irish people voting to repeal the 8th that SF expected Toibín to then adhere to the whip system on legislation, motions etc for abortion and related womens health issues.

He didnt and his position became untenable after a number of suspensions and he left.

A significant portion of Aontú support derives from disaffected Shinners. It is in his interest to play to that gallery and try soak up some votes. That is fair game in politics.

If given the choice of Toibín for President, and even if they were in favour of abortion rights for women some here would probably give a higher preference for Toibín ahead of Connolly for President considering his split and criticism of SF.

 

[arbitron]

A 500-word essay about Deputy Tóibín but still no answers to any of the simple questions asked. That speaks for itself.

 

[Sister Sara]

Could we have some examples of sitting SF representatives (young or old) criticising the party or leadership either directly or indirectly?

As the previous post demonstrates, the SF apply the party whip system like other parties. Brian Stanley and Peadar Toibín are sitting TD's but have since left/resigned from SF after criticising/dispute the party or leadership.

There are plenty of examples of "anonymous" members that are highly critical and Aoife Moore's Long Game is a good source for anonymous quotes.

Could you provide some examples of sitting parliamentary members of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael (young or old) criticising the party or leadership either directly or indirectly?

Which other party makes their people sign a pledge of allegiance that they will not criticise the party?

SF doesn't make their people sign a "pledge of allegiance that they will not criticise the party" .

The pledge is a commitment in the rules for elected members to adhere to the instructions and directions of the Ard Comhairle - i.e. this is the Parliamentary Whip system which I beginning to think you may not understand?

Fianna Fail have similar pledge, no requirement to sign instead it is automatically imposed upon becoming a member.

Fine Gael have similar, I suggest you read their respective Constitutions.

So Peadar, Carol, and Violet are all wrong?

Yes.

Hope this briefer note helps.