Indo - "State takes in record €1bn inheritance tax as Taoiseach Micheál Martin pledges reform"

murphaph1 said:
I suspect a LOT of people who think it's better to tax unearned income are the same people who think a flat income tax, which arguably encourages work and especially overtime the most is grossly unfair, because they don't make 400k a year.
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I think that earned income should not be taxed at a higher rate than unearned income. I think that unearned wealth transfers should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income. I'm in favour of a broadening of the tax base away from labour and onto wealth and things like local services taxes. As technology reduces the amount of labour required in the "capital + labour = wealth creation" equation we are seeing a concentration of wealth away from labour. That's not good for society.

In that context I am in favour of a flatter, or less progressive, income tax model. The current system is massively beneficial to me but that's not a good reason to support it.
 
ClubMan said:
You presumably mean a flat rate income tax system if you don't mean a progressive or regressive one?
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I mean a less progressive one. A top marginal total deduction of 45% or less. PRSI, PAYE, USC, call it what you like, it's all just tax. I'd also go back to the old system where things like health insurance were deductible at the highest rate you paid.


I started paying social insurance on the first penny I earned. I think everyone should pay some income tax. I think removing low earners from the tax net was a massive mistake, especially since so many of them are young and living in mid to high income households. A lower rate of 10% on earnings over €5000 a year would be a good idea. I'd charge PRSI on all earnings but reintroduce the PRSI ceiling that was removed in 2001.

By developed country international standards we massively under tax low and middle earners and we over tax high earners. I'd like to see us move closer to the average.

I'd also like to see us move closer to the US average for property taxes.
 
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Purple said:
I think removing low earners from the tax net was a massive mistake, especially since so many of them are young and living in mid to high income households.
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I agree with you but I think the government recognises that lower-paid jobs are less attractive now and are more likely to be done by women (one of the many penalties society foists on mothers in particular).

Lower earners also spend proportionally more of their income on goods and services that attract VAT, so they are already contributing significantly to the exchequer through consumption rather than direct taxes.
 
arbitron said:
I agree with you but I think the government recognises that lower-paid jobs are less attractive now and are more likely to be done by women (one of the many penalties society foists on mothers in particular).
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Most minimum wage jobs are done by young people and others who live in mid to high income homes. Low skilled and unskilled jobs are lower paid. What's that got to do with gender? I think it had far more to do with whither someone is an immigrant or not. I rarely have my takeaway delivered by a white Irish woman.
High welfare rates and high taxes reduce the participation rate of women in the workforce. My ex wife is a GP and she finds it very difficult to find a female GP who wants to work full time. If they work 18 hours a week they have no childcare costs and an effective tax rate of under 20%. If they work an extra 18 hours childcare and taxes take more than 75% of the extra income.


arbitron said:
Lower earners also spend proportionally more of their income on goods and services that attract VAT, so they are already contributing significantly to the exchequer through consumption rather than direct taxes.
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There is no VAT on food, medical services, books, children clothes and other essential items. If they are spending proportionally more of their income on goods and services that attract VAT then they are buying plenty of descressionary items.
 
Purple said:
Low skilled and unskilled jobs are lower paid. What's that got to do with gender?
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Because with children, a lot of women end up doing unskilled low paid jobs to juggle part-time and child rearing.
When considering higher paid workers and rates of tax, tax advantages that higher paid job attract are never mentioned: bonus in shares, pension payments. Much easier to benefit from them or negotiate these when one earns a higher wage. This reduces the actual level of taxes paid by higher paid workers (up to a point). As a family, as we are financially much more comfortable than at some point in our life, our tax bill has been reduced despite higher incomes.
 
Premos said:
Because with children, a lot of women end up doing unskilled low paid jobs to juggle part-time and child rearing.
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Okay, but that's a choice and either parent could do it. Just because women are more likely to choose to do it doesn't mean there's some sort of societal pressure and it doesn't mean we should adjust our taxation system because of it. As a parent I'd have loved to have the option of working part time when my children were younger but unfortunately that wasn't an option.
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Premos said:
When considering higher paid workers and rates of tax, tax advantages that higher paid job attract are never mentioned: bonus in shares, pension payments. Much easier to benefit from them or negotiate these when one earns a higher wage. This reduces the actual level of taxes paid by higher paid workers (up to a point). As a family, as we are financially much more comfortable than at some point in our life, our tax bill has been reduced despite higher incomes.
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Yes, those paying over 50% of their marginal income in tax will get a proportionate referment if they contribute to their pension. In my view gains on shares should be taxes the same as earned income.
 
Purple said:
Okay, but that's a choice and either parent could do it. Just because women are more likely to choose to do it doesn't mean there's some sort of societal pressure
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Considering the cost of childcare, the lack of availability of childcare, the all education system with short days and long holidays, the lack of services for children with special needs, the choice is sometimes not much of a choice.
 
Purple said:
Okay, but that's a choice and either parent could do it.
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Yes either parent could do and either parent would more likely then end up in a lower paid part-time job. But the reality is it's still done mostly by women.
 
Premos said:
Considering the cost of childcare, the lack of availability of childcare, the all education system with short days and long holidays, the lack of services for children with special needs, the choice is sometimes not much of a choice.
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My point is that either parent can do it. It is not a gendered issue. The fact that mothers are more likely to choose to do it is not something that should inform taxation policy. I consider the parent not getting to see their children more often and sacrificing that time to provide financially for the family as the parent making the sacrifice. I like my job but I never wanted to be in work rather than with my children when they were small. I think it's a bizarre proposition to suggest that the parent who gets to spend that time with their children is making a sacrifice.
 
Purple said:
consider the parent not getting to see their children more often and sacrificing that time to provide financially for the family as the parent making the sacrifice. I like my job but I never wanted to be in work rather than with my children when they were small. I think it's a bizarre proposition to suggest that the parent who gets to spend that time with their children is making a sacrifice.
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But you didn't do it. I didn't speak about sacrifices.
You seems to have an issue with the gender, I explained why a lot of low paid jobs are occupied by women. That's it.
 
Premos said:
Yes either parent could do and either parent would more likely then end up in a lower paid part-time job. But the reality is it's still done mostly by women.
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Women are generally more qualified than men and out earn them into their 30's. Choosing to work part time does not mean their are paid less. It means they earn less. 15 hours at €50 an hour is still a better paid job than 40 hours at €25 an hour even though the person working 15 hours a week earns less.
 
Premos said:
But you didn't do it.
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I was a single parent. I had to cook and clean and teach them to cook and clean and sew and bake and all the other stuff while also working long hours. I never considered the things I did with my children to be work.
 
Purple said:
I was a single parent. I had to cook and clean and teach them to cook and clean and sew and bake and all the other stuff while also working long hours. I never considered the things I did with my children to be work.
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I would say someone minded them when you were at work
 
For some workers, not cheap childcare is simply too expensive particularly during the early years so the decision is made to stop or reduce hours. Reduced hours might mean change job, work in the evening or weekend to basically make it work. It can then become very difficult to re-enter the workforce at high wage levels. You made It work your way, others do differently.
I never spoke about sacrifices.
 
Premos said:
For some workers, not cheap childcare is simply too expensive particularly during the early years so the decision is made to stop or reduce hours. Reduced hours might mean change job, work in the evening or weekend to basically make it work. It can then become very difficult to re-enter the workforce at high wage levels. You made It work your way, others do differently.
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I agree. Our current taxation and welfare system makes it more attractive for highly skilled parents to stay out of the workforce. That means that they are not making the economic contribution to the country that they would otherwise make.
I'd rather see lower marginal taxes and childcare expenses deductible at whatever the marginal rate of tax the parents are paying. That would make it more financially possible for people to stay in the workforce.

If we can rent out a room tax free why can't we pay childcare out of pre-tax income?
 
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