Indo - "State takes in record €1bn inheritance tax as Taoiseach Micheál Martin pledges reform"

What Is Unearned Income?​

Unearned income refers to any income that is earned passively, without performing work or providing a service. In contrast to earned income, which comes from wages, salaries, and business activities, unearned income is derived from investments or other sources where no labor is involved. Common examples of unearned income, or passive income, include interest from savings accounts, dividends from stocks, and rental income from properties.
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Well, I'm not going to argue with Investopedia :) I did look it up in more detail, and indeed organized day trading is classified as earned income. Passive investments as unearned income. Taking however a purely personal point of view I struggle with the definition that rental income is "unearned", even if that is the tax classification. Being a landlord can involve plenty of work, just not a regular every-day all-day work. Just recently I had to drop what I was doing and urgently deal with a leak! :) I've spent days redecorating on occasion.

Anyway sorry this is now way off topic so I will stop.
 
1. Should inheretance be taxed more, given that it is unearned? Particularly in context that earned income taxed so heavily.

Or should unearned income be taxed more, in order to reduce income tax? Chicken and egg. I understand the absolute amounts are vastly different but it's more the principle, allocating tax benefits to people getting gifts is ultimately paid for by workers/companies.

2. Should benefactor be penalised for getting money from parent etc that has probably been earned through hard work and taxed already?

I think your framing is misleading. Who is being penalised? Certainly not the benefactor, getting money they did nothing for other than being born lucky.

Secondly, it's not clear that the assets were already taxed. This is the main issue. CAT is the vehicle to transfer untaxed wealth, to the detriment of those not lucky enough to be related to wealth. Main PPR's accumulate tax free and other assets that have accumulated large capital gains can be relieved of CGT on death. The CAT system incentivises hoarding and concentration of wealth, which is a drag on productivity and the economy in general.
 
Being a landlord can involve plenty of work, just not a regular every-day all-day work. Just recently I had to drop what I was doing and urgently deal with a leak! :) I've spent days redecorating on occasion.
I've been a landlord. At one stage I was a landlord, a tenant and a home owner all at the same time. I used a letting agent to manage the properties. No work, no hassle and a small fee.
 
Should we be assessing the work to see if it was hard or easy?
Yea, "I worked hard all my life" is one of the most stupid, self aggrandising and meaningless phrases around. My Children have worked hard all their lives. They have worked hard in school and college and part time jobs.
 
If someone is caring for an elderly parent in that parents house, but are living next door, and they are left the house, that would be considered unearned income I imagine.
 
Unearned income refers to any income that is earned passively, without performing work or providing a service.
Investing is providing a service. You are letting the entrepreneur use your money to buy stuff and then (hopefully) give you your money back plus a share of the profit.

It is more a definition thing. Calling one type "unearned" is mostly to be insulting/downgrade that type of income. I think labour income and investment income would be better names.

Income tax -> Earned income -> Labour income
Capital gains tax -> Unearned income -> Investment income

It is also funny that dividends payments apparently count as earned income and is subject to income tax. It is crazy, since dividends are obviously investment income. You don't get paid dividends because you worked for them.

Capital gains are just as earned as labour income. A person decides not to spend their money Today and in exchange gets more money in the future (though with risk). They earn the future money by not spending their money immediately, being patient, and taking some risk.

Someone who invests in passive funds will earn less than someone who puts in a lot of research. Though most people will have difficulty beatings index investing.

Secondly, it's not clear that the assets were already taxed. This is the main issue. CAT is the vehicle to transfer untaxed wealth, to the detriment of those not lucky enough to be related to wealth.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to remove the CGT exemption on death. Death should count as a disposal for CGT purposes OR the CGT baseline should stay the same.

It is unfair that you can wipe out decades of CGT liability by passing the property to the next generation.
 
Investing is providing a service. You are letting the entrepreneur use your money to buy stuff and then (hopefully) give you your money back plus a share of the profit.
That's a real stretch.

It is also funny that dividends payments apparently count as earned income and is subject to income tax. It is crazy, since dividends are obviously investment income. You don't get paid dividends because you worked for them.

Yes, I always found that strange. Our taxation system discourages work and it discourages active investment.
Capital gains are just as earned as labour income.
No they are not. Most Capital Gains are in PPR's (homes). Those are untaxed. The capital gains which are taxed are taxed at a lower rate than earned income/ labour income. In my opinion that is unfair.

A person decides not to spend their money Today and in exchange gets more money in the future (though with risk). They earn the future money by being not spending their money immediately, being patient, and taking some risk.
Or they inherit intergenerational wealth and invest it, it leave it invested, and get a return. That's not anything like earning it.



Oxford English Dictionary: Earned income; money derived from paid work.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to remove the CGT exemption on death. Death should count as a disposal for CGT purposes OR the CGT baseline should stay the same.

It is unfair that you can wipe out decades of CGT liability by passing the property to the next generation.
Not a bad idea.
 
Any self-respecting conservative or capitalist will agree that a tax system should reward people who actually earn their money and contribute to the economy. Governments should not spend time increasing tax breaks to those who get gifts for being born into the right family. We didn't escape monarchy only to mimic their corrupt system of passing wealth along narrow family lines.

Capitalism rewards merit and individual economic activity. Status is not fixed or automatically passed down and can changes between generations based on performance. Competition is valued and incentives are tied to creation and growth of wealth. Advantage is earned through effort, development of skills, and taking risks. Barriers to entry are lower. Capital flows towards productivity. Education, employment, tax generation.

Even within capitalism there are ideological divisions:
Capitalists who value property rights (more libertarian) argue very strongly that taxing any gift is fundamentally wrong. That's fine, that's a perfectly reasonable view.
Other capitalists who place higher value on merit and effort argue equally vociferously that unearned windfalls (inheritance) should not be taxed less than earned income. I happen to agree that it's preferable to reward people who work more than we reward people who receive a gift.

Capitalism rewards the owners of the means of production.
The system which rewards work over inherited wealth is the one traditionally favoured by our bearded brethern.
 
The earned/unearned distinction doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Deciding how to allocate capital is work.
 
If someone is caring for an elderly parent in that parents house, but are living next door, and they are left the house, that would be considered unearned income I imagine.
In a technical sense it is, yes. Not sure how you'd design a tax system to provide greater credits to people who spend more time and effort in caring responsibilities, from a practical POV. There is an exemption for people who live with their parent and inherit the house.
It is more a definition thing. Calling one type "unearned" is mostly to be insulting/downgrade that type of income. I think labour income and investment income would be better names.
The earned/unearned distinction doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Deciding how to allocate capital is work.
The “earned vs unearned” distinction is a standard technical classification used in tax systems. For example, the Internal Revenue Service explicitly defines those categories using that wording. Other tax systems work on the same basic technical basis: it’s just shorthand for income from labour vs income from capital. Even if investing involves effort, the income itself is treated as arising from ownership of assets rather than ongoing labour - that’s the distinction the system is making.

You could absolutely call them “labour income” and “investment income” instead, but that’s basically just a different label for the same underlying classification that most tax systems rely on

I think a reasonable compromise would be to remove the CGT exemption on death.
The exit tax approach seems fair: death is a taxable event, but the exit tax paid is available as a CAT credit to the recipient.
From a technical standpoint this would materially change the tax base and distribution of the burden, and introduce significant administrative complexity, particularly if the intent is to reduce the burden on the recipient.

The current CAT regime is relatively transparent and predictable (e.g. child with a defined threshold, tax on value above that). Moving to a CGT charge on death would instead require all assets to be valued and historic base costs established, which is often impractical in practice.

More fundamentally, it shifts the system from taxing inheritances (value received) to taxing historic gains, which can produce highly uneven outcomes. For example, long-held quoted shares with low base cost would trigger substantial CGT, whereas a principal private residence of equivalent value would (presumably) remain exempt. Two estates of similar value could therefore face very different effective tax rates depending purely on asset composition and holding period.

It would also create behavioral distortions around timing of disposals and estate planning, and raise liquidity issues where tax becomes payable on death without a corresponding realization event.

I think tinkering around the edges would make sense - I have no real issue with favoured nieces and nephews for people without children, for example, so long as it's within reasonable limits.
 
Capitalism rewards the owners of the means of production.
The system which rewards work over inherited wealth is the one traditionally favoured by our bearded brethern.
Adam Smith said that “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

Capitalism is founded on the private ownership of capital, voluntary exchange and competitive markets. It is not a societal model, it's an economic one. Comparing Capitalism to Socialism is comparing apples to oranges.

How we choose to tax people should balance the need not to impede economic growth and activity with the desire for a cohesive and fair society (fair being a tern which we continuously redefine).
 
Deciding how to allocate capital is work.
Let's say that my parents decided to buy a house 50 years ago using money they inherited from their parents. 20 years later they then gifted the house to me tax free as it was under the lifetime gift tax threshold. I then, after careful consideration, decided to leave that capital allocated in that house. That would have involved some effort on my part. Let's call that effort "work".
Over the proceeding 29 years that house increased in value.

Do you think that in that scenario I worked for my capital gain and that work is the same as the income I derived from my labour over the same period?

Do you think that there is the same societal advantage/advancement from both types of work?

If my work as a carpenter or engineer or nurse or truck driver or neurosurgeon has a greater net benefit to society then do you think that it is fair and in the interest of society to tax that work at a higher rate than the capital gain I derived from inheriting a house tax free from my parents?

We currently tax income generated from labour which builds and maintains our society at a higher rate than wealth generated from capital appreciation which hurts and damages our society. I have a problem with that.
 
Over the proceeding 29 years that house increased in value.

Ideally property taxes would address that to a degree. You get a Luas stop near by your value is going to go up and so will your taxes.

Living in Canada it was eye opening to me how people accepted property taxes as fair part of the tax system. People would downsize because of the property taxes bill.
 
Ideally property taxes would address that to a degree. You get a Luas stop near by your value is going to go up and so will your taxes.

Living in Canada it was eye opening to me how people accepted property taxes as fair part of the tax system. People would downsize because of the property taxes bill.
Yep, American friends tell me that the rule of thumb is that your property tax will be half of whatever the mortgage would cost.
 
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