Immigrants to fill 400,000 Jobs

Re: Piggy

I don't feel the need to use alter 'unregistered' egos Tizona.

Oink Oink.
Wow...you got me with that one.

Whenever you feel like it you can either back up your claim or withdraw it.
While you're at it you might like to actually debate the points I've made...unless all you're interested in is attacking me?
 
Piggy

Thatsallowed, given you like the odd joke yourself.

1 minute left.....be quick....
 
Re: Piggy

Tizona,

Like I said, whenever you feel like backing up or retracting those comments go ahead. Otherwise your points can't be taken very seriously can they?

You might want to reply to some of the questions I asked you as well.
 
Piggy

But how can I take you seriously now piggy?

If you think making a joke in your comments is OK but nobody else can, then I suggest either you're taking yourself either too seriously or you should be more consistent in your tone.

See ya.
 
Re: Piggy

If you think making a joke in your comments is OK but nobody else can, then I suggest either you're taking yourself either too seriously or you should be more consistent in your tone.

Ho hum...if this is how you want to play your game then so be it.

As I said, I made one tongue in cheek comment because you mentioned 'host culture'.

So, was this a joke then too?
you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity

I don't know why you want to continue with this tit-for-tat. All I'm asking you to do is clarify that point. If you can't clarify it then it can only be viewed as a specific attack on me for no good reason other than you don't like some of the points I make.

If you want to take this debate off into this little game then that's your choice. I don't see what you gain by it.

Choosing not do, or not being able to answer questions like this...
"What communities and what extremist leaders are you referring to exactly?"...also raises suspicions about the motives behind the point you're making.
 
Piggy

Piggy he has a point. You tend to throw in red herrings to all your posts I've noticed.

That retort about not needing to befriend immigrants because you don't need to befriend Kerrymen is an example. There is no comparison in the situation of a native Irish person in his own land, and a foreign immigrant with no friends in a strange country.
I guess you were just 'joking' again eh?

I see Tizonas angle. The country is full of PC liberals who cry about immigrants not getting a fair crack, and travellers being discriminated against...but if you put them next to a traveller in a pub they'd move to the far end of the bar to avoid them. Pure hypocrisy.

As to the Christian Culture issue...I see your position as comparable to the Hollywood bosses who told Mel Gibson the Passion would never sell. Then it was the biggest hit of the year. You underestimate peoples core belief.

Just wait 'til Il Papa visits. I bet there'll be major surprise at the enormous turnout he gets. We'll judge then, eh?
 
Passion of the Christ

Paddy Irishman said
"As to the Christian Culture issue...I see your position as comparable to the Hollywood bosses who told Mel Gibson the Passion would never sell. Then it was the biggest hit of the year. You underestimate peoples core belief."

What a stupid comment. It had nothing to do with core beliefs that the film was so popular.
 
Piggy

> Just wait 'til Il Papa visits. I bet there'll be major surprise at the enormous turnout he gets. We'll judge then, eh?

So what. The Red Hot Chili Peppers attracted c. 2.5% of the population of Ireland recently. It doesn't necessarily mean that they all want to surf and take smack. :rolleyes

> What a stupid comment. It had nothing to do with core beliefs that the film was so popular.

Exactly. Myself and the wife went to see it because we're interested in the historical figure of JC but don't believe in his divinity for example...
 
The Passion

Oh. My mistake.
You two obviously speak for the hundreds of thousands (millions?) who went to the movie.

Who could possibly argue with such sages as you?
 
Re: Piggy

As to the Christian Culture issue...I see your position as comparable to the Hollywood bosses who told Mel Gibson the Passion would never sell. Then it was the biggest hit of the year. You underestimate peoples core belief.

Core belief?
Is that why 'The Last Temptation of Christ' was so popular...even though it was seen as being highly blasphemous by the Catholic Church and Christians alike?
Or perhaps it's the same reason that Dan Brown's books are so popular, even though he tells stories which discuss Mary Magdalene as the Holy Grail.
It's a very simplistic argument to suggest that people flocked to see a film which had massive media hype, and was highly controvserial even before it was released out of some core belief!

You tend to throw in red herrings to all your posts I've noticed.
Can you give me some examples please?

That retort about not needing to befriend immigrants because you don't need to befriend Kerrymen is an example. There is no comparison in the situation of a native Irish person in his own land, and a foreign immigrant with no friends in a strange country.
I guess you were just 'joking' again eh?

No, I wasn't joking. I thought the point that Tizona was making was rather simplistic and was highlighting that fact.
The idea of integration as opposed to multi-culturism is one thing. Personally I don't think it would work. There are many groups of peoples in this country who by and large congregate amongst themselves. This has much to do with human beings feeling comfortable amongst their own as it does with religion or other factors.
There are large Jewish sections of Dublin. Nobody ghettoised them in those areas. They usually tend to live cloe by to Synagogues surprisingly enough!
Similarly, there are, relatively speaking, large Muslim communities in certain parts of Dublin's city centre. There are also pockets of other immigrant (or otherwise) communities in other parts of the city. By and large we get on well together. Where the problem really lies, and why integration would not solve problems is where people view these people as being different. Your stereotypical "they're taking our jobs" type view. This is what causes bad feelings amongst communities. Get rid of the inherent racism in Irish society and you rid the need for ideas such as integration.

The country is full of PC liberals who cry about immigrants not getting a fair crack
There is an air of veiled racism in this comment. This would suggest that you feel the opposite?

but if you put them next to a traveller in a pub they'd move to the far end of the bar to avoid them. Pure hypocrisy.
I see, so you think you speak for everyone in Irish society do you? There are plenty of people who walk by homeless people on their way to and from work everyday. There are always some individuals who give them the time of day, buy them some food etc...
I live in a typical middle class area of South Dublin. Within a radius of two square miles there are three permanent halting sites, all well run, and there has never been any problems between communities. The travelling community in Ireland has sometimes received a lot of flak. Sometimes there is justification for it as there are some very rough elements in their communities, but sometimes without reason. I have witnessed this myself. And, I have also witnessed first hand the destructive nature that bad elements in these travelling communities can have first hand on my own community, when a large group of mainy overseas travellers moved into the land surrounding the Dodder river in Rathfarnham. The Gardai had to be called in virtually every night. They caused a huge amount of damage and litteraly turned the place into a dumping ground.

So, getting back to integration. Should travellers be forced to integrate with the rest of us? I don't think so personally.

I see Tizonas angle
I don't I'm afriad. What I do see are veiled references to "extremeist leaders" which leads me to believe that he has another agenda which he won't spit out.
 
Re: Piggy

> You two obviously speak for the hundreds of thousands (millions?) who went to the movie.

No - the words "for example" above were a clue to the fact that I was merely speaking for ourselves...

> Who could possibly argue with such sages as you?

People who don't feel the need to resort to sarcastic one liners perhaps? At least Tizona attempts to argue his/her case for example...
 
tizona

Immigrants from Asia and Africa often share neither language, nor religion with their host. Their culture is alien to the hostand they feel threatened by it. The result is the kind of ghettoisation that has occurred in places like Leeds/Bradford in the UK, where white faces are rarely seen in many areas, the population frequently doesn't speak english (and doesn't want to), and they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country. These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.

Hear, hear! The UK, and US are where we need to look for an image of things to come. Bradford is an incredible place, everyone should go there at least once before rabbiting on about integration.
I am far less optimistic than Tizona however, I think this future is inevitable rather than a warning. Watch this space.
 
Re: tizona

I think this future is inevitable rather than a warning
Care to expand on that a little? What is inevitable in Ireland?

All I see are some veiled remarks backed up with little or no fact:
they feel threatened by it Is there any evidence to suggest this?
where white faces are rarely seen in many areas
There are places like this in Dublin too right now. Does this mean anything necessarily?
they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country
Is there any evidence to back this theory up? Even if this was the case it isn't necessarily a bad thing. If I went to live in the US I'm sure I would have more loyalty to my native country than my newly adopted one.
These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.
Seeing as Tizona seems to be unwilling to discuss this comment perhaps you could fill in the blanks?

The UK, and US are where we need to look for an image of things to come
Whereabouts in the US exactly?
 
Red Herrings

There you go again Piggy, throwing out your Red Herrings.

I'm rapidly beginning to see why people drop out of these threads when you get involved. You have the tiresome attitude of a petulant child.

Your style is of the 7 year old in the playground '...tell me why...prove it....you're a liar...did not...yah boo sucks...'

Grow up.
 
Piggy

Yeah, and don't forget the "moderator I think you should close this thread right now" crap.

Translated into 7 year old language = "Give me MY ball back, and I'm going to tell teacher on you...sniff..."
 
Re: Red Herrings

There you go again Piggy, throwing out your Red Herrings
What red herrings?

You have the tiresome attitude of a petulant child.
You mean because I ask people to clarify what they're saying or respond to specific points they make which is what a debate is supposed to be about?

Maybe you could both debate the specific points as opposed to attacking me for no good reason?
 
...

Care to expand on that a little? What is inevitable in Ireland?

Sure, but I would also like to enter it on the record that you are playing silly buggers. You know exactly what I mean unless you are a fool.

The US and UK have many markedly divided areas where society has boken apart on purely racial fault lines. Bradford being one of them. I think this ghettoisation and eventual segmentation is inevitable. In fact why am I stating the obvious? you know what I mean, I am just reahashing what has already been well put by Tizona. You seem to think that becuase I am not painting a eutopic picture of racial harmony that there is something fundamentally objectionable about my comments. Grow up indeed.
 
Re: ...

You know exactly what I mean unless you are a fool.
It's difficult to debate anything unless people are willing to lay their views on the table without others having to guess what they're talking about.

I think this ghettoisation and eventual segmentation is inevitable. In fact why am I stating the obvious? you know what I mean, I am just reahashing what has already been well put by Tizona
Okay...so segmentation is possibly inevitable in some circumstances. But we have segmentation in Ireland as I have already pointed out. Has it led to anything bad or wrong?
I don't know what you mean unless you say it. What are you afraid of saying?

You seem to think that becuase I am not painting a eutopic picture of racial harmony that there is something fundamentally objectionable about my comments
No...not necessarily. My remarks were in relation to Tizona's comments. I asked you two specific questions on your points.

Care to expand on that a little? What is inevitable in Ireland?
(which you have answered)
and
Whereabouts in the US exactly?
 
...

I refuse to pander to your childish notions of how a debate should be constructed any further.

Whereabouts in the US exactly?

My response to this was removed by a moderator.
 
Re: ...

I refuse to pander to your childish notions of how a debate should be constructed any further.

Fine, if you refuse to acknowledge that a debate should be based upon individual and specific points being made and qualified then there is little point in debating this subject with me.
 
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