Health Service Inefficiency

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I think there is aa need for Unions in the Public Sector. I just don't think the power balance is right.
I think this is the important point, balance. In most organisations you have 3 competing stakeholders (1) The Customers, (2) the Organisation, (3) the Workers.

In my opinion, the customers (patients/taxpayers) are not nearly represented enough in the public health service. The difference between private and public is like night & day...if we ever need to go to A&E I wouldn't dream of going to my local hospital. I know, it's just one example, but for all the money spent on the public system, surely I should be better off going to my local hospital for A&E services?

To me it's simple, the balance is way off....as the patient, I am not treated like a customer, more an inconvenience.
 
I think there is aa need for Unions in the Public Sector. I just don't think the power balance is right. It's not that Unions can change things but they stymie reform and delay change. In any organisation with 120,000 employees there will be scope for rationalisation. There is massive duplication of process all over the State Sector and within the HSE in particular. The problem is that because Public Sector employees in effect can't be made redundant it is not possible for those in charge to manage their most valuable resource, their people, to give the greatest benefit to those who consume their services.
I know two nurses who left here to work in London because of the frustrations of working in our grossly inefficient health service.

I know a woman who moved back to Ireland from England having worked in their health service. She assesses houses for grant supports for special needs children, hoists, lifts, wet-rooms etc. In England she used a Tablet, taking photo's and filling in the details on-line. She then emailed it to her boss for approval and the work was done. She was audited each year and knew she would be sacked and criminal charges brought if she was fiddling the system.
Back here she takes photos on her phone, emails them to herself, prints them out and types up a form which then goes through 2 committees before the grant is approved. She said the overhead costs are more than three times as high here than in the UK and it takes up to a year longer to have the grant approved. She asked if the system could be changed and was told to shut up and do her job. That's the sort of waste that needs to be addressed but it would involve reducing numbers, laying people off.
I'm not sure who'd be taking photos for a disabled person's housing adaptation grant application?The application form doesn't require any photos, just details of the house, doctor's report and possibly an OT report to validate the need. When works have been completed, there is a final inspection by a Council engineer or housing technician, who then submits a report. Maybe the year-long delay in approval of grants is because the local authority tend to run out of budget for these grants? Again, it's hard to see the relevant of blaming any union here.

There is indeed an issue about how mobile phones are being used right across public and private sectors, in Ireland and abroad. In most organistions, mobile phones are used for corporate email/calendering, actual phones calls, and other apps which run in a separate domain, kept totally separate from the corporate email for security reasons. This doesn't make best use of phone facilities like the camera or GPS. If you choose to bring the mobile phones inside the corporate domain so that apps can use cameras and more, you'll probably have to lock down all other apps, to prevent the user loading up software that would breach the security of the corporate domain. This is a very common problem, nothing to do with an Irish public sector limitation.

The 'can't make people redundant' isn't really the huge problem that you think it is. There is steady turnover within the public servicing and lots of ongoing recruitment. If there were opportunities to save manpower by reducing overall numbers, it would be fairly easy to achieve this through natural wastage by putting a brake on recruitment for a time, as tends to happen during times of government budget crunches. Staff are frequently allocated and reallocated based on needs. The availability of online support for the big public facing organisations like Revenue and DSP has resulted in large numbers of staff being reallocated from public counters to other services. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
 
The Payroll debacle was championed by one of our best know accountancy firms in the private sector and they got it spectacularly wrong.
I think we have been down this road before. It is unfair to blame external IT providers / management consultants / accountancy firms in this case. Basically, the HSE went ahead with PPARS despite a recommendation that its scope and value for money be determined beforehand. See post # 89 on this thread https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/hospital-trolleys.201798/page-5#post-1506204.
 
I'm not sure who'd be taking photos for a disabled person's housing adaptation grant application?The application form doesn't require any photos, just details of the house, doctor's report and possibly an OT report to validate the need. When works have been completed, there is a final inspection by a Council engineer or housing technician, who then submits a report. Maybe the year-long delay in approval of grants is because the local authority tend to run out of budget for these grants? Again, it's hard to see the relevant of blaming any union here.
From the form you linked;
Occupational therapist assessment: An occupational therapist (OT) will need to assess you if you are applying for any of the following: l a big change to the use of a room in your home; l a stair lift; l an extension. This is to make sure the right work is done in the home to suit your needs.

There is indeed an issue about how mobile phones are being used right across public and private sectors, in Ireland and abroad. In most organistions, mobile phones are used for corporate email/calendering, actual phones calls, and other apps which run in a separate domain, kept totally separate from the corporate email for security reasons. This doesn't make best use of phone facilities like the camera or GPS. If you choose to bring the mobile phones inside the corporate domain so that apps can use cameras and more, you'll probably have to lock down all other apps, to prevent the user loading up software that would breach the security of the corporate domain. This is a very common problem, nothing to do with an Irish public sector limitation.
Nothing to do with what I was talking about.
The 'can't make people redundant' isn't really the huge problem that you think it is. There is steady turnover within the public servicing and lots of ongoing recruitment. If there were opportunities to save manpower by reducing overall numbers, it would be fairly easy to achieve this through natural wastage by putting a brake on recruitment for a time, as tends to happen during times of government budget crunches. Staff are frequently allocated and reallocated based on needs. The availability of online support for the big public facing organisations like Revenue and DSP has resulted in large numbers of staff being reallocated from public counters to other services. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
If you can't pick the people you want to keep and get rid of then you aren't managing them. Blanket hiring freezes are way too blunt an instrument. There is certainly great mobility of labour in the Civil Service but the further you get away from that the worse it gets.
 
Maybe this stuff is just hard, very hard, imaginably hard given the size and history of the organisations, the incessant consumer demands, the ever changing landscape, the technology developments and associated cost. It's easy to blame unions, but if they were the huge barrier being claimed here, it should be fairly easy to produce examples of the kinds of scenarios where unions have been the barrier to progress.
I think that's a key factor. If tow health boards merge then they only need one set of non-customer facing administrative staff. Maybe a slightly larger set but basically one set.
When the HSE start with a green-field project, like our Covid App for example, they do a good job. When they have to build something that straddles the semi-animated zombie corpses of dozens of organisations that are pretending to be a single organisation it is almost impossible to win.
 
I remember a set of European nations went down this route in the 1930s.
Absurd analogy. PS unions are preventing reform and efficient service delivery.

The purpose of the public sector is not to discommode the general public.

PS unions have no useful purpose considering the various protections/benefits enshrined in law afforded to all PS employees.
 
Yet again, it would be great if you could give some specific examples
I did that in my original comment.

If you want another, look at the Leinster House printer fiasco. The staff were refusing to be trained in on how to operate the said printer unless they received a pay increase for "upskilling".During the working day. To operate a printer..

It's too farcical for Father Ted
 
I did that in my original comment.

If you want another, look at the Leinster House printer fiasco. The staff were refusing to be trained in on how to operate the said printer unless they received a pay increase for "upskilling".During the working day. To operate a printer..

It's too farcical for Father Ted
In all fairness, you didn't provide any specifics in your original comment. You mentioned something about MRIs in hospitals, so please clarify what MRIs in what hospitals you are talking about here?

In relation to the printer, it is up and running now. The trade union insisted that proper risk assessments were done, which isn't unreasonable when dealing with heavy equipment that involve some serious cutting equipment. I see one unattributed reference in one news article that " It is understood that the union is seeking additional payments" which wouldn't exactly be a sound basis for decision making to me. Maybe they did ask for extra payments or maybe they didn't. There's certainly no reports that they got extra payments, and the printer is up and running now.
So again, it seems that your claim that "are solely responsible for preventing efficient service delivery" has no basis in fact.
 
PS unions have no useful purpose considering the various protections/benefits enshrined in law afforded to all PS employees.
What is 'PS'? We're dealing with public sector and private sector here, so PS isn't really helpful.
And what protections or benefits for public sector staff are 'enshrined in law'? I know of some benefits that are 'enshrined in contracts', and some that are 'enshrined in agreements' but not enshrined in law.

How do you think those benefits came about, btw? Maybe because of decent trade unions? Your argument is a bit like saying that we didn't need to fix all those computers in 1999 because we didn't have many problems at Y2K. There's a reason WHY we didn't have many problems at Y2K.
 
From the form you linked;
Occupational therapist assessment: An occupational therapist (OT) will need to assess you if you are applying for any of the following: l a big change to the use of a room in your home; l a stair lift; l an extension. This is to make sure the right work is done in the home to suit your needs.
If your friend is an OT, then she is a private contractor. Her phone, her app, her email is all her responsibility, no-one else's. I'm not sure why you're blaming public sector unions for the poor technology decisions of a private sector contractor.
Nothing to do with what I was talking about.
It's the reason why many organisations who care about protecting their technology infrastructure aren't getting full potential out of mobile phones.

If you can't pick the people you want to keep and get rid of then you aren't managing them. Blanket hiring freezes are way too blunt an instrument. There is certainly great mobility of labour in the Civil Service but the further you get away from that the worse it gets.
That's not redundancy. Positions are made redundant, not people. You don't get to pick your favourites in a redundancy situation. Hiring freezes are indeed a blunt instrument. Natural wastage happens all the time, so if the approved staffing numbers for any organisation are reduced, they'll most likely have little difficulty in achieving this.
But again, I'm not sure why you're blaming the unions here. What have the unions done that is a barrier to reform or service improvements?
 
There's a council depot near where I work where all the l
If your friend is an OT, then she is a private contractor. Her phone, her app, her email is all her responsibility, no-one else's. I'm not sure why you're blaming public sector unions for the poor technology decisions of a private sector contractor.
No, she's a HSE employee.
That's not redundancy. Positions are made redundant, not people.
Yep, and if 20 people are performing a role but you only need 15 you keep the best 15. You do if you are running an organisation properly.
You don't get to pick your favourites in a redundancy situation.
No, you pick the best.
Hiring freezes are indeed a blunt instrument. Natural wastage happens all the time, so if the approved staffing numbers for any organisation are reduced, they'll most likely have little difficulty in achieving this.
It's about keeping the best people for the job. The best people don't just embrace change, they drive it. Maybe it's just the people aren't good enough, which is not the Unions fault. Is that what you are saying? They are all just pencil pushers operating at the lowest common denominator so the best is as bad as the worst? Bloody hell, that's depressing!
 
I have yet to talk to anyone working in a large State organisation, Bank or Financial Services company who doesn't complain about inefficiency. I have yet to talk to anyone who wants see see improvement and change who doesn't think that Unions are part of the problem (just as any vested interest group would be). I think those who champion the Unions as they are currently constituted are the ones who know they are part of the problem. Nothing I've read so far on this thread, or the others like it on AAM, have done anything to convince me otherwise.
In the specific case of the Health service I consider the people who run the Unions to have blood on their hands.
 
I think we have been down this road before. It is unfair to blame external IT providers / management consultants / accountancy firms in this case. Basically, the HSE went ahead with PPARS despite a recommendation that its scope and value for money be determined beforehand. See post # 89 on this thread https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/hospital-trolleys.201798/page-5#post-1506204.
1. You're right PMU we have been down this road before and again I kept quiet back then because there was no point in arguing as many posters then just blatantly refused to inflict any blame the private company. I found that unbelievable and consequently backed out of the thread not bothering to argue with those who were just tied in to something like "It's the private sector and it could do no wrong."

2. Let's think about that for a minute. Let's say that private company did its job. But, why was PPARS never brought into action? The honest answer is that it fell down on the job spectacularly and for some reason has obviated itself from any blame. It was never going to work with the "roadmap" they championed. In blunt terms the rocket never even got to the launching pad.

3. The unions had nothing whatsoever to do with the failure of PPARS. They didn't need to do anything as some of us predicted the obvious and definite demise of PPARS before it was even launched. Nobody listened and many millions were wasted.
 
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There's a council depot near where I work where all the l
I'm dying to hear how the unions ruined your local council depot!

No, she's a HSE employee.
HSE have no role in housing grants for people with disabilities. The grants are provided by the local council, based on an application form signed off by their doctor and possibly a privately engaged OT.

But again, what's the union issue in this story? It may well be that local councils in the UK have much large volumes and possibly larger IT budgets, so they can buy a device and an app for their staff who do assessments. That doesn't say anything about union attitudes here.

Yep, and if 20 people are performing a role but you only need 15 you keep the best 15. You do if you are running an organisation properly.

No, you pick the best.

It's about keeping the best people for the job. The best people don't just embrace change, they drive it. Maybe it's just the people aren't good enough, which is not the Unions fault. Is that what you are saying? They are all just pencil pushers operating at the lowest common denominator so the best is as bad as the worst? Bloody hell, that's depressing!
What I'm saying is that you called for redundancies. There is a legal definition of redundancy in Ireland. It applies to a post, not a person. You don't get to pick and choose who gets redundancy. It is the person in the job that no longer exists that gets redundancy. That applies to all organisations, public and private, unionised or not.

There are of course other ways to manage your staff to incentivise the best staff to stay in public service. Frequent beatings-up of those staff in public forums like this one is not one of those incentives.
 
I have yet to talk to anyone working in a large State organisation, Bank or Financial Services company who doesn't complain about inefficiency. I have yet to talk to anyone who wants see see improvement and change who doesn't think that Unions are part of the problem (just as any vested interest group would be). I think those who champion the Unions as they are currently constituted are the ones who know they are part of the problem. Nothing I've read so far on this thread, or the others like it on AAM, have done anything to convince me otherwise.
In the specific case of the Health service I consider the people who run the Unions to have blood on their hands.
There's inefficiencies in all organisations, public and private, large and small, unionised and not.

If you're going to make allegations about people having blood on their hands, it would be half-decent to have some specifics to back those up.
 
2. "Some if not all public sector payroll is still breathtakingly incompetent." - This is true of both the Public and Private Sectors. Ask anybody with problems with Revenue and Social Welfare.
Yes but efforts to improve by addressing issues/errors when they arise are normal in the private sector, the exception in the pubic.

3. Welcome to the Public Sector, I'm sure it will be all the richer for your presence and experience. (not sarcasm)
Thank you for that.

4. In September you received a pay rise for new responsibilities and haven't yet been paid. All pay rises must be "sanctioned" after agreement and likely this didn't happen during September (and perhaps October). During September payroll for October would largely have been prepared and you were never going to receive your pay rise by November. I would bet you won't get it in December either, It's likely you'll get your pay award early in 2022 and perhaps later the arrears due.

For the record:- Centralised Payroll is only a tool of the organisation. The people there can only pay as per instructions from elsewhere.
It was signed off locally months ago, and passed to the Dept for sanction. The sanction came back from the Dept in July. The contract appointing me to the new role came from the Dept in August. I took up the new duties at the end of Sept. I will let you know when I get paid.

It is an interesting point that the arrears may not come with the increase, I hadn't thought of that, thanks for the warning.
 
so please clarify what MRIs in what hospitals you are talking about here?
Do you enjoy asking spurious questions which you know can’t be answered?


The trade union insisted that proper risk assessments were doneThere's certainly no reports that they got extra payments, and the printer is up and running now.
Good grief

It is understood that the union is seeking additional payments" which wouldn't exactly be a sound basis for decision making to me. Maybe they did ask for extra payments or maybe they didn't.
Ah nice chicanery there

So again, it seems that your claim that "are solely responsible for preventing efficient service delivery" has no basis in fact.
Empirical day to day living is the evidence.

Anyway, I’m not interested in arguing the reality of the public sector; your stance is an embedded public sector one, I would wager that of a union rep.
 
What is 'PS'? We're dealing with public sector and private sector here, so PS isn't really helpful.
And what protections or benefits for public sector staff are 'enshrined in law'? I know of some benefits that are 'enshrined in contracts', and some that are 'enshrined in agreements' but not enshrined in law.

How do you think those benefits came about, btw? Maybe because of decent trade unions? Your argument is a bit like saying that we didn't need to fix all those computers in 1999 because we didn't have many problems at Y2K. There's a reason WHY we didn't have many problems at Y2K.
Considering the title of this thread and the nature of the discussion, it only could mean public sector, which you know full well.

Statutory entitlements-holiday pay, contracts of employment, maternity/paternity leave; obviously.

What’s important is they’re here today and the public service needs to shift their focus from navel gazing to providing a service fit for purpose
 
In the specific case of the Health service I consider the people who run the Unions to have blood on their hands.
The unions represent their members so it’s not just them that have blood on their hands but the individuals who make up the membership.

Not to mention the rampant abuse of the aggregated sick pay system-I know several HSE employees who book their maximum sick leave entitlement at the beginning of each year.

It takes a certain type of person who would do this, knowing it is going to have an adverse affect on the lives of the inherently vulnerable.
 
Absurd analogy. PS unions are preventing reform and efficient service delivery.

The purpose of the public sector is not to discommode the general public.

PS unions have no useful purpose considering the various protections/benefits enshrined in law afforded to all PS employees.
I’m sure the ‘30s dictators had their justifications for persecuting trade unionists.
 
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