Greenman Open Fund investment

Shirazman said:
I'm very interested to read that you have (online?) access to your account. Did your broker arrange this for you? I ask because I have to ask my broker for statements and would much prefer to have my own access.

In the 3 years since I invested in Greenman, the value of my investment has fallen by 1.2%; however, I have received quarterly distributions (and bonuses) worth about 13% of its original value. Of course, as the distributions are taxed at 41% the net value to me is only 7.8% of the value of the investment. But overall I'm quite satisfied with the performance of my Greenman investment to date.
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I’m sorry, but this Greenman stuff is just being flogged by brokers because it pays them juicy commissions.

It’s a German property fund with leverage designed to make money for the promoters and for its distributors, who are mainly old school “wanna buy a watch” brokers.

If my adviser showed me Greenman, I’d look for a new adviser.
 
A QFA is meaningless. It’s the most basic of qualifications. You should be dealing with CFAs, CFPs, tax consultants, etc.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
A QFA is meaningless. It’s the most basic of qualifications. You should be dealing with CFAs, CFPs, tax consultants, etc.
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And what guarantee would I have the next professional adviser with a fancy acronym that I deal with will be any better than the previous ones?

Answer: absolutely none. Or, to quote Steven "I don't give guarantees".
 
My guess is that you are going to sales brokers who are paid a commission for selling you a product when what you are seeking is objective advice


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There is no fiduciary standard in Ireland, as there is in the USA for example.

Financial planners have to hold themselves to higher standards and in my view one way is setting out clearly their investment philosophy

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Coffeeortea said:
I’m in this investment since April 2020 and to date I have seen a 1.6% fund value increase and have had returns paid back to me of just over €2,000. I’m told there will also be an additional bonus of 1% paid in Jun/Jul which means my total return is 1.6% fund growth plus €2,508 in dividends or as they call them distributions. I can see this as I have access to my account and its clearly laid out. This means my return is 6.61% for 15 months and in line with what I was told it would do. Another thread mentioned 8% returns, I was advised between 5 to 6%. I’m in the option that pays out dividends but there is another option that rolls the dividends up if I recall which means the fund growth would be higher.
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In that period, a global index of stocks is up 50% and the S&P 500 is up 53%. This is way above the long term average return that would be expected for an equity fund, but then, I don't make any predictions on returns and will always welcome these high returns...as long as investors know that there will be bumps in the road too.



Marc said:
My guess is that you are going to sales brokers who are paid a commission for selling you a product when what you are seeking is objective advice

There is no fiduciary standard in Ireland, as there is in the USA for example.

Financial planners have to hold themselves to higher standards and in my view one way is setting out clearly their investment philosophy
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A lot of them don't though Marc. I've seen lots of cases of double commission plays from CFPs. In a bid of boost their number, the FPSB have also allowed tied agents to be CFPs. They eat what they kill and can only earn an income from selling products to people. It is near on impossible for someone to identify who is just going to try to flog them something and who is working on their behalf. The easiest way to do it is ask the advisor if they will work on a fee basis.


Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
Marc said:
Stephen you are absolutely correct it’s the payment mechanism that is to blame.

The Central Bank looked at this recently and under intense pressure from the financial services industry in Ireland and contrary to international regulatory standards didn’t ban commissions on the sale of investment products.

And only yesterday I met a doctor who was being pushed (not too strong a word) to buy an ARF against his long term interests

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Did a review recently and was asked to look at whether is was a good idea to transfer his DB benefits to a buy out bond. Upon looking into it, it was an old DB with indexation in retirement in the rules. If he went into a DC environment, he would have to get returns of 17% per annum to match what he was giving up. Yet lots of his colleagues did. And you get bet your bottom dollar that they got paid a hell of a lot more from the commission they earned to give bad advice than the fee I earned to save someone tens of thousands.

The Central Bank needs to ban commissions on products. Simple

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
Steven Barrett said:
n that period, a global index of stocks is up 50% and the S&P 500 is up 53%. This is way above the long term average return that would be expected for an equity fund, but then, I don't make any predictions on returns and will always welcome these high returns...as long as investors know that there will be bumps in the road too.
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Hi Stephen, Thankfully a good portion of my portfolio was able to partake in that gain after dropping earlier in the year. My Greenman fund is a small percentgae of my overall portfolio (about 9% from last update) and held in a pension so I dont pay 41% tax as someone mentioned. I'm aware of the leverage from the suitability document. This was explained to me along with with low rates this is locked into with the capacity for repayment. The 4 main tenants that help fund these are the biggest retailers in Europe in the food sector, so unless we all stop eating they should pay the rent :) I was pleased to see it do what the adviser said it would do over the last year. He is a CFP and looked after our family for years and came from a recommendation I saw on this page many years ago.
 
Has any Investor been made aware of the delays in redemptions now happening with Greenman? I was invested, thankfully my broker advised me to get out last year but it now seems they are in trouble as Aviva won’t be allowing people to invest in Greenman through them which was Greenman’s main funding channel. The company told brokers this week that they now have to sell their properties and Investors can expect penalties and delays if they take their money out.
 
Heidi12 said:
Has any Investor been made aware of the delays in redemptions now happening with Greenman? I was invested, thankfully my broker advised me to get out last year but it now seems they are in trouble as Aviva won’t be allowing people to invest in Greenman through them which was Greenman’s main funding channel. The company told brokers this week that they now have to sell their properties and Investors can expect penalties and delays if they take their money out.
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I really must congratulate my QFA/junk bond salesman the next time that he dares to contact me. Because this latest Greenman news, coming hot on the heels of my other dud investments in Blackbee, Dolmen and Solar 21, means that he has now hit the jackpot!

I assume that he obtained his QFA certificate on eBay and sometimes wonder how he can sleep at night. :(
 
For transparency, my broker is actually my brother. He had me in Greenman since 2017 and the returns were ok up until 2022 onwards when the returns were virtually zero. He didn’t like what the company were saying on their webinars and felt they were deflecting from the performance of the fund by talking about going green etc. This along with many other reasons including the fact that it takes 6 months to get your money back was the reason he took the decision to get all his clients out last year.
 
For what it’s worth Marsupial, I don’t think your Investment is gone. Greenman are having significant funding issues and the trust between them and investors is gone from what I know. They are now having to sell properties to redeem their investors which will take a long time. They seemingly said that if anyone wants to come out then you will probably be hit with a penalty so stay with us is the best option. That almost sounds like blackmail to me.
 
Heidi12 said:
They seemingly said that if anyone wants to come out then you will probably be hit with a penalty so stay with us is the best option.
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That would be pretty standard for any property investment/fund. If someone is taking their money out then it's going to have a knock-on effect for those that remain invested. A basis fact sheet will usually include something like - If you invest in this product there may be extended periods when you do not have any access to your money. For an Approved RetirementFund (ARF) policy, periods with no access to your money may be of particular importance if you are relying on the Property Fund to provide income in retirement.

Pre-contractual Disclosure Document https://www.avivabroker.ie/wp-content/uploads/Prospectus-Greenman-Investments-Part-II-ELTIF-SICAV-202401-final4-VISAED.pdf (here)page 101 deals with redemptions.
 
For all unitised funds, the fact sheet always shows a portion of the fund in cash. This is used to pay any withdrawals from the fund. It's made up of new investments into the fund which haven't yet be used to buy assets, dividends or rent received and proceeds from sale of assets. When new investments dry up and rent/dividends aren't sufficient to pay withdrawals, assets are sold to pay the withdrawals. In an equity or bond based fund, the assets highly liquid and can be sold quickly to pay the withdrawals. For a property fund, the assets are illiquid and take time to sell. This is why property fund usually have on the T&Cs that withdrawals can take up to 6 months. Il
 
www.irishtimes.com

Property fund warns Irish investors of ‘knee-jerk’ redemption risk for €1.26bn portfolio

Fund, which about 8,000 Irish investors back, faced an uptick in redemption requests in the third quarter
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
[Subscriber article.]

Extract:

Greenman Open, a €1.26 billion German supermarket real estate fund, has warned its mainly Irish investors that people seeking to cash in now may not get full value if properties need to be sold. The alert comes as the fund, which is backed by about 8,000 Irish investors, faced an uptick in redemption requests in the third quarter of this year.

This follows three developments: a delay in repayments due in July as the fund sought to preserve cash as it moved to a new system for investors to buy and sell units of the fund; Aviva removing the fund from a key investment platform; and several investors who had piled in during the Covid-19 pandemic looking to cash in after a three-year lock-up.

The fund’s redemption requests amounted to just over 5 per cent of its net asset value in the third quarter, compared to a quarterly average of 2 per cent over the past five years, chief executive Johnnie Wilkinson told The Irish Times.
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www.irishtimes.com

8,000 Irish investors blocked from withdrawing cash from German retail property fund

Greenman Fund has activated ‘redemption gate’ after spike in redemption requests during third quarter
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com

The chief executive said the fund had received redemption requests with a total value of between €30 million and €32 million since the beginning of October. “That [left us] in a position where we just felt it would be prudent to take that step [of gating the fund],” he said.

Asked how long he expects it to be gated, Mr Wilkinson replied: “I think the best case will be 12 months. The more realistic case will be 18 months.”
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Mr Wilkinson, who cofounded the firm in 2005 with fellow financial adviser Peter O’Reilly, also said Greenman Open’s underlying property portfolio is “performing very, very well” with all of its tenants meeting their rental obligations.
 
It's concerning as we still have a substantial sum in Greenman, though some consolation that we withdrew a wodge 18 months ago. So far the fund is still paying out monthly, which is good, but it seems there's not much all 8000 of us Irish investors can do other than wait it out with fingers crossed and hope the projected recovery happens. It's particularly bad news for anyone who's in urgent need of their investment money - thankfully we aren't.
 
This is a property investment.

If you had bought property directly, you might be unable to sell it or have to wait months or years.

The big Irish life assurance companies had problems with excess redemptions in the past. Not sure if they suspended withdrawals, but they changed the basis of pricing from bid to offer (or vice versa?) thus effectively charging a 10% penalty on withdrawals.
 
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