Energy subsidies for businesses

[T McGibney]

.You might be used to doing the books for small business but in the context of the broader business world a dentist is a very small energy user.

Claptrap. I got it right when I noted earlier that dentists with specialised equipment would have sizeable energy bills. You incorrectly rebutted that without knowing either what you were talking about - dentistry- or what we were talking about - the selective exclusion of professional practices from this scheme.

Nobody is contesting that other businesses have even more severe energy requirements and nowhere have I questioned anyone's entitlement to support. In this regard, your attempt to slur my clientele as solely "small business" is wholly gratuitous as well as being factually incorrect.

But do keep personalising your arguments, it's edifying.

 

[Purple]

Claptrap. I got it right when I noted earlier that dentists with specialised equipment would have sizeable energy bills. You incorrectly rebutted that without knowing either what you were talking about - dentistry- or what we were talking about - the selective exclusion of professional practices from this scheme.

I never defended the exclusion of some sectors from the scheme. I merely suggested what the rationale might be. In the context of energy use dentistry and similar industries are small energy users.

Nobody is contesting that other businesses have even more severe energy requirements and nowhere have I questioned anyone's entitlement to support. In this regard, your attempt to slur my clientele as solely "small business" is wholly gratuitous as well as being factually incorrect.

I didn't attempt to slur anyone. I merely suggested it might be a reason you though dentistry was a high energy use sector.

But do keep personalising your arguments, it's edifying.

Indeed;

Amazing how people can make such ill-informed comments on this site without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.

 

[T McGibney]

I didn't attempt to slur anyone. I merely suggested it might be a reason you though dentistry was a high energy use sector.

And you were wrong. On both counts. Again.

 

[Purple]

And you were wrong. On both counts. Again.

Grand so, if you think that an extra €5k a year is a big input in a dental practice employing 2 dentists then I'm not going to attempt to convince you otherwise. If you think that a spend of €10-€15k a year makes a business a high energy user then ditto.
You seem unduly upset by my posts. It might be better for you if I stopped responding to yours.

 

[T McGibney]

You seem unduly upset by my posts. It might be better for you if I stopped responding to yours.

It might be better for us all if you confined yourself to factual comments. And stop misrepresenting others when they correct your errors.

 

[lomber]

Whats your turnover though if your using 1/4 million?

 

[Purple]

Whats your turnover though if your using 1/4 million?

around €16 million
Labour is by far our biggest input cost, then materials.

 

[lomber]

Elect is only less than 2% then of t/o, no different to a dentists ratio therefore

 

[Purple]

Elect is only less than 2% then of t/o, no different to a dentists ratio therefore

Yep, we're not a high energy user either.

Manufacturing processes that use heat are the big users. Aluminium prices are at historical highs but producers in Europe are ceasing production as they can't make the stuff at a profit due to energy costs (The EU uses around 8.5 million tons a year and there's forecasted to be a 5 million ton deficit this year). Energy historically make up 40% of their costs.

Energy accounts for around 35% of the cost of making bread, more than a quarter of the cost of beer, about 40% of the cost of producing Cement. Those are the high energy consumption sectors.

Businesses like mine and yours shouldn't be getting supports but if mine is getting it then so should yours.

 

[lomber]

Absolutely, its unforgivable to discriminate between trade and profession. The Irish tax code has been written by very clever overgrown spiders who feed off their prey who get stuck in nets to feed an expanding State that produces nothing. This injustice just highlights that.

I believe fertilizer production has also ceased hin Europe. A colleague tells me that his electricity is around 10 or 15 cent a unit due to Hydro in the US in Washington state I believe. He said that paying 50, 100 ,150 cent a unit is ridiculous and incomprehensible.

 

[mahmudaparvin]

I would think that energy costs form a very small proportion of their overall costs so an increase is unlikely to threaten their surviva

 

[Purple]

Absolutely, its unforgivable to discriminate between trade and profession.

What is the difference, other than an antiquated English notion of how a particular sector is regulated?

The Irish tax code has been written by very clever overgrown spiders who feed off their prey who get stuck in nets to feed an expanding State that produces nothing. This injustice just highlights that.

Yes, the State is betting bigger and bigger without any discussion as to whether or not that's a good thing.

I believe fertilizer production has also ceased hin Europe. A colleague tells me that his electricity is around 10 or 15 cent a unit due to Hydro in the US in Washington state I believe. He said that paying 50, 100 ,150 cent a unit is ridiculous and incomprehensible.

We are hostages to the idea that the only good green energy is wind and solar and now we are paying the ransom.

 

[lomber]

When I worked in the UK the tax return also discriminated and segregated income into- business trade profession. I think it's based on that and no doubt the original reason was that losses or capital allowances on one head can't be offset against anothers income. Similarly in Ireland if you are in a partnership and buy a property and there's a loss on resale that loss is restricted to the partnership.
So basically the tax payer gets the worse of the bargain whilst they look like they are fair.

 

[Purple]

When I worked in the UK the tax return also discriminated and segregated income into- business trade profession. I think it's based on that and no doubt the original reason was that losses or capital allowances on one head can't be offset against anothers income. Similarly in Ireland if you are in a partnership and buy a property and there's a loss on resale that loss is restricted to the partnership.
So basically the tax payer gets the worse of the bargain whilst they look like they are fair.

So is the differentiation between limited liability companies and everyone else?

 

[T McGibney]

So is the differentiation between limited liability companies and everyone else?

Not according to the Minister's Budget speech. Only a small minority of practising professionals operate via limited liability companies.

 

[Purple]

Not according to the Minister's Budget speech. Only a small minority of practising professionals operate via limited liability companies.

In essence does this apply to any entity that is subject to 12.5% Corporation tax, i.e. a Company.
For example can a plumber or welder who makes gates and who have a workshop but operate as sole traders avail of the energy subsidy?

 

[marsaday]

Surely it is time for the Taoiseach , Tanaiste or Finance minister to come in to the Dail or the telly / radio and clear up these questions ? Otherwise we are are all only speculating.

 

[Purple]

Surely it is time for the Taoiseach , Tanaiste or Finance minister to come in to the Dail or the telly / radio and clear up these questions ? Otherwise we are are all only speculating.

I'm waiting for the combined intellect of AAM to answer it for me.

 

[T McGibney]

In essence does this apply to any entity that is subject to 12.5% Corporation tax, i.e. a Company.
For example can a plumber or welder who makes gates and who have a workshop but operate as sole traders avail of the energy subsidy?

If we are to trust the Minister's words, surely it must apply to both? Mind you, his announcement that he plans to unilaterally exclude professional services businesses suggests that the whole idea may not have as yet progressed far beyond the back-of-a-beermat phase.

 

[marsaday]

If we are to trust the Minister's words, surely it must apply to both? Mind you, his announcement that he plans to unilaterally exclude professional services businesses suggests that the whole idea may not have as yet progressed far beyond the back-of-a-beermat phase.

Yes , I would agree with the " back of a beer mat" analogy. You're probably being a bit charitable to the Minister there.