Energy subsidies for businesses

[Purple]

Oddly enough, in large swathes of the country, you can't find a doctor for love nor money and doctors are quitting practice quicker than new entrants are arriving, many of them saying that they're sick of continually being taken for granted.

The old school GP's who were available to the community day and night are a thing of the past. General Practice is now a female dominated industry with a large proportion of them working part time. High marginal tax rates, high childcare costs and work-life balance all play a part in that. Therefore group practices are the norm and those aren't viable in many rural areas. The GMS payment system also plays into that as there is funding for staff, IT, Locums etc as the GMS list becomes bigger. A fulltime urban GP will be making somewhere between €150k and €250k a year. My Ex is a GP and she makes considerably more than that but she's a good GP and has a big practice.

 

[T McGibney]

The old school GP's who were available to the community day and night are a thing of the past. General Practice is now a female dominated industry with a large proportion of them working part time. High marginal tax rates, high childcare costs and work-life balance all play a part in that. Therefore group practices are the norm and those aren't viable in many rural areas. The GMS payment system also plays into that as there is funding for staff, IT, Locums etc as the GMS list becomes bigger. A fulltime urban GP will be making somewhere between €150k and €250k a year. My Ex is a GP and she makes considerably more than that but she's a good GP and has a big practice.

My point stands.

The beginning of the end for many of them was a decade or so ago when Revenue suddenly and retrospectively changed the rules on the employment status of locums, meaning that not only were GPs left without holiday, illness or family time cover, but many were hit with significant and retrospective PAYE/PRSI, interest and penalty bills despite having genuinely and fully above board hired and utilised locums as self-employed independent contractors.

This was of course justified by a supposition that none of them "would notice a few thousand euro one way of the other" but the laws of economics apply to the supply of doctors just as much as it does to everything else.

 

[Purple]

My point stands.

The beginning of the end for many of them was a decade or so ago when Revenue suddenly and retrospectively changed the rules on the employment status of locums, meaning that not only were GPs left without holiday, illness or family time cover, but many were hit with significant and retrospective PAYE/PRSI, interest and penalty bills despite having genuinely and fully above board hired and utilised locums as self-employed independent contractors.

This was of course justified by a supposition that none of them "would notice a few thousand euro one way of the other" but the laws of economics apply to the supply of doctors just as much as it does to everything else.

Does that mean a GP employing a Locum for 2 weeks holiday cover is taking on an employee rather than a contractor?
My understanding is that they are contractors in those circumstances and as such PAYE/PRSI is not an issue but where GP's employed doctors as "Locums" but those doctors were working permanently part time Revenue treated them as employees, and rightly so.

 

[T McGibney]

Does that mean a GP employing a Locum for 2 weeks holiday cover is taking on an employee rather than a contractor?

Yes.

And one engaged for a half day to say enable the GP go to a funeral, likewise.

Meanwhile, because Revenue now deny locums any tax deduction for travelling to and from work engagements and for other incidental costs, nobody wants to be a locum and they're very hard to find. Nighmare stuff all round.

 

[Purple]

Yes.

And one engaged for a half day to say enable the GP go to a funeral, likewise.

That's not the experience of my Ex. She's been hiring Locums for years for holiday cover etc and it's never been a problem. Doctors she employs to work part time in her practice are not locums, they are employees.

Meanwhile, because Revenue now deny locums any tax deduction for travelling to and from work engagements and for other incidental costs, nobody wants to be a locum and they're very hard to find. Nighmare stuff all round.

I wasn't aware that travel to or from your place of work was ever an allowable cost. If the doctor works for a locum company that is different.

 

[T McGibney]

That's not the experience of my Ex. She's been hiring Locums for years for holiday cover etc and it's never been a problem. Doctors she employs to work part time in her practice are not locums, they are employees.

She's lucky. Perhaps it's a rural/urban thing. I personally know of rural locums who quit the trade because it was no longer worth the hassle. GPs in our area report serious difficulties locating locums.

I wasn't aware that travel to or from your place of work was ever an allowable cost.

It was always a grey area and was tolerated in the case of locums until around a decade ago. Then it was changed, with predictable results.

If the doctor works for a locum company that is different.

If the doctor works for a locum company, Revenue may seek to impose 23% VAT on the transaction sum on the basis that the service provided by the locum company is a personnel service, not a medical service.

 

[Purple]

Oaky, back out of the rabbit hole, is there a distinction between companies and sole traders in this support?

 

[T McGibney]

Oaky, back out of the rabbit hole, is there a distinction between companies and sole traders in this support?

Not that I know of.

 

[Purple]

She's lucky. Perhaps it's a rural/urban thing. I personally know of rural locums who quit the trade because it was no longer worth the hassle. GPs in our area report serious difficulties locating locums.

I think that's a rural thing and the next point plays a part too, though locums could just charge more to work in rural areas. Rural GP's do get a hand-out from the GMS to encourage them to stay put.

It was always a grey area and was tolerated in the case of locums until around a decade ago. Then it was changed, with predictable results.

Yep, see above.

If the doctor works for a locum company, Revenue may seek to impose 23% VAT on the transaction sum on the basis that the service provided by the locum company is a personnel service, not a medical service.

Well it is a personal service in that they aren't engaging them to treat them, rather they are engaging them so they can go on holidays etc.

 

[Purple]

Not that I know of.

That's kind of what distinguishes the Case 1 and Case 2 activities so maybe that's what they are after.

 

[Sharpie]

That's kind of what distinguishes the Case 1 and Case 2 activities so maybe that's what they are after.

Anybody got a list of Case 2 activities ?

 

[lomber]

Only in Ireland would they split these activities for their own advantage. As a dentist now with an 8 or 9 k bill Vs 3 before annually they aren't helping !

 

[Purple]

Only in Ireland would they split these activities for their own advantage. As a dentist now with an 8 or 9 k bill Vs 3 before annually they aren't helping !

That's interesting. That means you are using around 3 times as much electricity during your working week as a family uses in a full week. Assuming you are working 40 hours a week that means you use more than 12 times as much electricity per hour.
Can I ask what heavy machinery you use in your business? It's a long time since I looked at the power consumption of x-ray machines but I thought dental x-rays were a 40kW system. That's around 4 times what an electric shower uses.

 

[marsaday]

To be fair , lombers‘ yearly usage is totally plausible if he/she are a medium/ large practice with maybe say , 2 or 3 dentists , 2 dental assistants maybe, a hygienist and secretary. Waiting areas have to be lit up, computers, telephone systems, radiators burn energy. I’m sure lomber is not coming on here making up figures, Purple. Their bills used to be €500 every two months, now they are €1400 + . You are also ignoring the fact that commercial tarrifs are 2-3 times the price of residential presently , not to mention heftier PSO Levies and standing charges. Totally plausible and I think , with respect they and all businesses should be entitled to the TBESS.

 

[Purple]

To be fair , lombers‘ yearly usage is totally plausible if he/she are a medium/ large practice with maybe say , 2 or 3 dentists , 2 dental assistants maybe, a hygienist and secretary. Waiting areas have to be lit up, computers, telephone systems, radiators burn energy. I’m sure lomber is not coming on here making up figures, Purple. Their bills used to be €500 every two months, now they are €1400 + . You are also ignoring the fact that commercial tarrifs are 2-3 times the price of residential presently , not to mention heftier PSO Levies and standing charges. Totally plausible and I think , with respect they and all businesses should be entitled to the TBESS.

I'm not saying that they are making it up. I'm looking to understand it. Sure, if it's a big practice with a number of dentists. The old practice where a dentist operated from a house in a residential area would, I think, use far less power.
We have aa number of meters on a number of different tariffs where I work. We're currently paying an average of €0.42 per kWh. The PSO levy is tied to the MIC so it won't be that much on a smaller user.
We've adjusted our MIC's, installed LED lighting (best bang for your buck), put motion detectors in place, replaced our compressor (a massive user of power) and are installing 86kW of solar. We pay around €280k a year at current rates. The solar should reduce that by around €30k. If we'd done nothing we'd be paying €360k-€380k at current rates.

 

[ryaner]

€10k a month powering computers? My desktop in work costs around 10cent an hour to run.

Businesses are more than a single desktop, and most programmers tend to have machines on the large side. I'm on the heavy side but my desk alone (multiple systems) can be pulling > 1500watts at times and we'd have others doing similar. Then add in the server room, it is a business remember, and you start seeing where the power draw really is.

 

[lomber]

Hey, I used something like 15000 units last year. I fixed with Bord Gais in the summer for 13 months @40 cent +vat +levys ,dentists cant claim back vat, before I was with Go Power on a floating wholesale rate + 2 cent a unit.
Im trying to cut it to 10000 if at all possible with switch to led, powering off pcs, maybe diverting the heat from the sterilization room that is HOT into the cooler reception . Some of the pcs would be high end with high end graphics cards that reconstruct 3d images so use abit of power versus a laptop or low power desktop.

So basically theres two dentists full time 42 hours a week, a server thats on 24/7, 2 desktops on 24/7 (due to need to log in to check things off site), 2 surgeries with 5 light fittings (the roof tile size) each fitting has a 40w florescent, so thats 400 watts per surgery+ chairs which dont consume alot as has a led light.

Theres a sterilization room with 2 vacuum autoclaves that basically suck power and run for one hour per cycle to sterilize and dry the instruments

Add to that we have no gas and all heating and cooling is via heat pump aircon units (efficient , these have a COP of average 3.75/1 so 3.75 units of heat for one unit of electricity)

Also theres a compressor that runs when it needs to fill with air as all tool are air driven but obviously that wouldnt cycle too many times per day

Each chair has its own vacuum pump thats a motor thats spinning constantly once the suction tubes are lifted from the holder. Generally mine would run for say 3 hours maybe 4 per day as I put suction into everyones mouth even for a exam. This would likely use a fair bit.

Other power users would be general lighting ,at least another 4 pcs that are on during the day , xray machines although these are only on for realistically less than a fraction of a second (say .16 of a second)

We use alot of hot water and although I fitted a small 20 liter tank custom made to save heat up time in the morning this I leave on during the work day on its own thermostat.

I know Im lucky and ok even if its another 5k for the year over what we are used to thats 2.5 after tax or 1.25 each which everyone is correct isnt going to kill anyone but its the principal
Case 1 , Case 2 ? Only in Ireland, only in Ireland...

 

[Purple]

@lomber, that's a serious power requirement alright. I'd suggest you change all you lights to LED's and make sure you have the most efficient compressor you can get as they are incredibly power hungry.

 

[T McGibney]

Nothing a dentist uses required large amounts of power. Manufacturing, particularly where significant amounts of heat is required, food processing and things like that are what they are targeting.

Amazing how people can make such ill-informed comments on this site without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.

 

[Purple]

Amazing how people can make such ill-informed comments on this site without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.

It's amazing how some people can make such ill informed a nasty comments without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.
What do they use which requires a large amount of power?
@lomber outlined their power requirement and while it is significant in the context of a household it is tiny in the context of business users who have a large energy requirement. My business spends in excess of a quarter of a million a year on energy but it's still a relatively small input cost. You might be used to doing the books for small business but in the context of the broader business world a dentist is a very small energy user.