Eligibility for 65 yr. payment.

So going back to my post of 4th February, this appears to be highly discriminatory towards ARF holders. Let's take a simple case of a 65 year old who satisfies the PRSI requirements, and who does not have rental/other investment income, or an actual paid working job (subsidiary employment)
  • If the above individual is paid €25,000 from a Defined Benefit pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
  • If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an annuity purchased form a DC pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
  • If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an ARF purchased from a DC pension scheme, then she/he does not qualify for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
Is this correct ?
Does anybody dispute that this is discriminatory ?
 
Freelance said:
If the above individual is paid €25,000 from an annuity purchased form a DC pension scheme, then she/he qualifies for the Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds
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I wonder if you could get around this creatively. Say retire on your 65th birthday and buy an annuity that pays out for just one year. Does such a product exist?
 
I started thinking creatively about ways around it, e.g. reducing the ARF payout for one year so that it is less then €7,500 etc. But this is beside the point. Why should I have to.

What I am trying to establish is whether or not I am correct when I say that this is blatantly discriminatory - treating one type of pension totally differently to another in a seemingly arbitrary manner.
 
@Freelance Seems unfair alright.

@bstop reading your various posts in this thread and others, and the answer to you Dáil question, does my understanding below seem right?

1. one can get 52 Class S PRSI stamps by drawing monthly from an ARF
2. with ARF distributions over €7500 one is viewed as being in insurable employment therefore it follows that with a drawdown of less then €7500 one would not be viewed to be in insurable employment
3. therefore a governing year ARF drawdown of over €7500 would be required if one wanted to meet this requirement: "Have paid 52 PRSI self-employment contributions at Class S in the Governing Contribution Year."

I had previously surmised that an ARF drawdown of €12500 might be required in the governing year, as that would result in €500 being paid in PRSI which matches the minimum PRSI required under the voluntary PRSI scheme.
 
michaelm said:
@Freelance Seems unfair alright.

@bstop reading your various posts in this thread and others, and the answer to you Dáil question, does my understanding below seem right?

1. one can get 52 Class S PRSI stamps by drawing monthly from an ARF
2. with ARF distributions over €7500 one is viewed as being in insurable employment therefore it follows that with a drawdown of less then €7500 one would not be viewed to be in insurable employment
3. therefore a governing year ARF drawdown of over €7500 would be required if one wanted to meet this requirement: "Have paid 52 PRSI self-employment contributions at Class S in the Governing Contribution Year."

I had previously surmised that an ARF drawdown of €12500 might be required in the governing year, as that would result in €500 being paid in PRSI which matches the minimum PRSI required under the voluntary PRSI scheme.
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You will get 52 S stamps if you have an ARF and have 12 drawdowns per year i.e. 1 per month. You do not need to pay 500 euro per year in Prsi to get the 52 S stamps. It doesn't matter how small each monthly drawdown is.
For example if you had an ARF of 25000 euro and you drawdown the minimum 4% per year which is 83.33 euro per month, you will get 52 S stamps per year.
 
Thanks for the reply, and I understand what you are saying. The answer to your Dáil question said that with distributions over €7500 one is view as being in insurable employment. The implication being that with drawdowns of less than €7500 one is not viewed as being in insurable employment. What I'm wondering is whether in your €83.33/month example the Class S stamps might not be viewed as PRSI self-employment contributions at Class S.
 
michaelm said:
Thanks for the reply, and I understand what you are saying. The answer to your Dáil question said that with distributions over €7500 one is view as being in insurable employment. The implication being that with drawdowns of less than €7500 one is not viewed as being in insurable employment. What I'm wondering is whether in your €83.33/month example the Class S stamps might not be viewed as PRSI self-employment contributions at Class S.
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Basically an S stamp is an S stamp it doesn't matter how you got it.
If you are paying S class Prsi you are considered as in insurable employment.
In my example the person is in insurable self employed with a yearly income of 1000 euro.
This person would qualify for the 65s payment as they have an income of less than 7500 euro per year.
 
If one retires early, say 60, and is drawing an occupational pension (over 7500/year) and, I think, paying class S PRSI on that, will that not disqualify one from receiving the 65's payment?
 
michaelm said:
If one retires early, say 60, and is drawing an occupational pension (over 7500/year) and, I think, paying class S PRSI on that, will that not disqualify one from receiving the 65's payment?
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Occupational pensions are Class M PRSI (currently zero). That will neither qualify you nor disqualify you.
 
Grueler said:
Yes, I should have no problem with the PRSI stamps, I was just worried the ARF might disqualify me.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Yes, no problem getting the payment AND having an ARF. When I started my ARF shortly after I started getting the over 65 payment, I got a letter from the DSP saying that Revenue had informed them that I was getting a payment from Zurich Life. I then had to send a signed form back to the DSP to confirm that the payment was a pension and not employment (as if).
 
cwc456 said:
Yes, no problem getting the payment AND having an ARF.
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Are your ARF drawdowns less than 7500 euro per year.
An ARF drawdown less than 7500 euro per year doesn't disqualify you for the 65s payment
 
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bstop said:
Are your ARF drawdowns less than 7500 euro per year.
An ARF drawdown less than 7500 euro per year doesn't disqualify you for the 65s payment
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At that rate you should be OK with an ARF fund worth up to about 187.5K assuming you draw down 7500 euro as the imputed 4% per annum.
 
Hi, trying to work out what is the " governing contribution year" for my wife. Her birthday is 31 December. Is the date taken from when you apply as opposed to your birthday year? If she applies on her birthday online, it would be 2023, but if she applied on 1st Jan, I assume it would be 2024. I ask, as she has an ARF, so we'd need to adjust the drawdown to come under the €7500, once we are clear on which year is GCY.

Many thanks
 
The governing year is the year when she reaches her 63rd birthday.

It would not make any difference if she applies for the payment on her 65 birthday or at a later date. The 65s benefit payment will always apply from the date she reaches age 65.
 
Hi All, the statement from the Minster for social protection indicates that there is no 7500 limit for earnings if you have a total of 117 earnings in the previous 3 years before becoming unemployed. Does anyone know if that applies to ARF income, and is that 3 calendar years or years from the date of your 65th birthday. Great discussion so far, appreciate the help. Cheers, Wally...

"However, customers may continue to work in subsidiary employment while in receipt of Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds, provided that the remuneration or profit from the occupation does not exceed €7,500 per annum or €144 on a weekly basis. Subsidiary employment is defined as work that could have been done while a person was in full-time employment and outside their normal working hours. Where a person has more than 117 contributions in the 3 years prior to becoming unemployed there is no income limit applied"
 
  • at least 117 employment contributions have been paid in respect of him or her in either the last 3 years or the last 3 complete contribution years immediately prior to the date of claim.
This is the wording for Jobseekers Benefit. This implies that it can be a time span of three years back from the claim or the previous three full contribution years. The wording in the "Operating Guidlines for 65s Benefit" for subsidiary employment is different to the wording in the "Operating Guidlines for Jobseekers Benefit" for subsidiary employment.

ARF income and investment or rental income are all classed as employment income so the ministers words should apply to all of these employments.

The ministers wording is also different to the wording in the 65s Benefit guidelines.
It is basically a confused mess. If I am not allowed the 65s Benefit I will be quoting the ministers version of qualification criteria.
 
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The statement by the minister seems to imply that if you have rental income for at least 117 weeks before the claim date then the 7500 euro limit does not apply.
The wording in the "Operational Guidlines for 65s benefit" states that you must have at least 117 weeks income before the claim date and income of less than 7500 euro.
The "Operating guidelines for Jobseekers Benefit" state that you must have 117 weeks income or income of less than 7500 euro.
Is there a mistake in the wording of the 65s benefit Guidlines ?
This whole situation is extremely confusing.
 
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