EBS EBS update Dec 2017

Hi All,
I just want to say that, you are 100% right.
In 2004 when we got our mortgage with EBS, the Bank jargon for tracker was variabile base margin not standard variable rate.
The Main loan type options were as follow;
1.Fix Rate
2.Tracker Rate
3.Easy Option - Defered Payment for Year 1.
4.Flexi Payment - Self Building.
For my self and my wife was fix rate for first year than preavailing variabile base which was tracker.
The letter received from EBS state: Due to increase in ECB rate your loan repayment increase by 0.25% - Therefore if is tracking ECB it is a tracker, corect?
In all the forms the variabile base was tracker.
I have the loan type options forms which they are part of the aplication with tracker rate at ECB 1%, forms which they have not been provided by EBS on my request.
I can post them here if I’m alowed to do that?
The Tracker Form specify that if you opt out of tracker, but if you start with fix in the first year follow by preavailing variable base which was tracker at 3.25% in 2004 than we should be on tracker rate.
In 2008, I was requesting to lower my tracker bellow 1% if is posibile and I was transfered to Tracker Retention specialist (as per record) and now they change the wording too: I was oferred 1% margin which was allready the case from loan aplication and their reply to my complaint via solicitor was: We dont received the instruction from your client (but they have the record of retention activist).
In the final response letter received from EBS they said that we are not part of the investigation as our account was not overcharged but is still under review and they advise me to contact FSO.
When I contact FSO they told me that they are not dealing with issues longer than 6 years.
In last comunication received from EBS they mention that our variable base rate have been changed to standard variable rate which is not part of our loan ofer contract.
Let me know if I can post the loan type option and the letter from EBS.

Any advise please?
Apologies for the length of my thread.
 
Hi Razvan
I also have this term “variable base rate” on my EBS loan offer from 2007. I was due to roll off a fixed rate in 2010 onto this “variable base rate” that I believed was a tracker based on additional info on the rate/loan option sheet you mention. However in 2010 EBS rolled me onto a standard variable rate.

Unfortunately I have not been able to locate that rate/loan type options sheet. EBS have not sent me this document either despite me requesting it from them. I would really appreciate it if you did post it as it will provide further evidence to my argument that I should have been offered a tracker in 2010.
Thanks
 
That is very clear cut. "Once you have chosen to opt out of the tracker mortgage, you can not switch back to this rate option."
Hi Brendan,
I signed the same aplication form as everybody in your thread and as you mention above the only thing is I chose to start with the fix rate for first year than preavaling his Variable base which I like all in this thread believed it was the Tracker rate.
I will log my complain with FSO as I have the final letter from EBS.
I will inform everyone on outcome from FSO.

Regards,
RR.
 
Hi Brendan,

While it may seem clear on its own, if you look at other things (loan offer, fixed rate form) it may not. customers would have signed the tracker application form as part of the initial mortgage application. The loan offer received subsequently states the Interest rate as below and I believe this is the case for most of EBS home loan customers (with different margins).

Interest Rate (Variable): 3.60%
Interest Rate Basis: Variable ECB Base + 1.10%

The fixed rate form states the below.

"at the end of fixed rate term loan will convert to the applicable variable rate then prevailing".

In our case, is this not the Variable rate as stated in our loan offer/contract? If per the bank, this is the "Standard Variable Rate" then, why did the fixed rate form not say it as "applicable standard variable rate then prevailing"? and why did the loan offer/contract state the interest rate as "Variable" instead of "Tracker"? Why would the bank use terms "Variable Rate" and "Standard Variable Rate" at different places if they both were same? Where does the fixed rate form say that by doing so, customers are effectively "opting out of the tracker mortgage for ever"? The bank might argue that this is implied, but nevertheless does this all not cause ambiguity and lead to customer interpretation/expectations to be different to that of banks?

I understand from recent update from CB (last Thursday, 18th Jan) that they are of the view that, there are no new cohorts yet to be identified as impacted and included in the redress scheme. But, how is the EBS cohort different from the below cohort AIB accepted and included in the redress in its Dec 20th update?

"Following ongoing review, AIB will pay redress and compensation to an additional c.900 customers. These are customers who had a tracker rate, switched to a fixed rate and were on a fixed rate when trackers were withdrawn in October 2008. While they did not have a contractual right to revert to a tracker other material may have led customers to believe that they could."

While I am not keeping my hopes high, I am not giving up hope either!

Regards,
RajR
 
There is a great deal of ambiguity around the definitions used by EBS in their loan offers pre 2008. In some instances trackers & fixed interest rates were on offer pre 2008 but standard variable rates were not on offer.

From reading posts on here and looking at my own contract the following terms seem to have been used in loan offers circa 2007 when describing interest rates on tracker & fixed rate mortgages:

*Tracker Mortgage:
Interest rate (variable): 5.25%
Interest rate basis: Variable ECB Base +1.25%

*Fixed Rate (3 years):
Interest rate after 3 years: Variable Base (currently 05.25%)

EBS have never offered an official definition of “variable base rate” although they have officially stated that their current SVR “is not directly linked to any reference rate i.e. ECB base rate.”

The only definition I can find of “variable base rate” is on the mortgagesireland.ie website which states that “a variable base rate is a mortgage interest rate that can change over the term of the term of the loan depending on the rates of the Central Bank meaning the monthly payments can go up or down in a given period.”
 
Sorry guys

I have argued in favour of so many people to get a tracker, but there is no ambiguity in this.

"Once you have chosen to opt out of the tracker mortgage, you can not switch back to this rate option."

It's not ambiguous. The Central Bank has pushed banks to do things which courts or the FSO would not direct the banks to do. Even the Central Bank couldn't challenge this one.

Brendan
 
Part quoting a form can lead many to different conclusions
My only argument with ebs has always been the tracker application form is clear
You can change from a tracker rate to fix or variable rate once without penalty during the life of the loan
Where is the once ‘without penalty’ as yet not answered by ebs in any way or means of explanation I have had some answers from ebs that are a joke
The fixed form declaration does not refer to the tracker application form in any way
What is also not answered is the many that were told by ebs staff they would revert to their tracker rate
It may well have to go further but here is a question
How come not one of thousands of customers when fixing was told they were losing their tracker rate in a clear way as was supposed to occur
That is the advantage of many coming to one source for the challenge
Were all the ebs staff who said to customers they would return to tracker wrong also
There is a large bank of evidence that is not as clear as you would state B.B.
just my view for the present Padraic
 
What is also not answered is the many that were told by ebs staff they would revert to their tracker rate

Hi Padraic

That surprises me, because most people hadn't a clue what trackers were at the time. It's odd that so many asked.

I am further surprised that years later they would remember that they asked.

And even further surprised that when their fixed rate ended, the many people did not complain about it.

But if someone was told that. And if they took it up with EBS when the fixed rate ended, then they should get their trackers back, even if what they were told flatly contradicts the documentation.

But people who remember 12 years later the contents of a conversation and who did not raise any complaint when the fixed rate ended, have no case, in my humble opinion.

Brendan
 
I know Brendan all these years later who would remember or would they make it up but my info is from ebs records that I have reviewers and checked not just as heresay found it with data access requests still compiling the jigsaw but most certainly not open and shut as being portrayed
 
There is a great deal of ambiguity around the definitions used by EBS in their loan offers pre 2008. In some instances trackers & fixed interest rates were on offer pre 2008 but standard variable rates were not on offer.

From reading posts on here and looking at my own contract the following terms seem to have been used in loan offers circa 2007 when describing interest rates on tracker & fixed rate mortgages:

*Tracker Mortgage:
Interest rate (variable): 5.25%
Interest rate basis: Variable ECB Base +1.25%

*Fixed Rate (3 years):
Interest rate after 3 years: Variable Base (currently 05.25%)

EBS have never offered an official definition of “variable base rate” although they have officially stated that their current SVR “is not directly linked to any reference rate i.e. ECB base rate.”

The only definition I can find of “variable base rate” is on the mortgagesireland.ie website which states that “a variable base rate is a mortgage interest rate that can change over the term of the term of the loan depending on the rates of the Central Bank meaning the monthly payments can go up or down in a given period.”
Hi All,
EBS Variable Base (prevailing) was the Tracker Rate (I will post the pictures to prove that) in EBS systems/vocabulary.
They never have Tracker Rate in their IT system since they start to offer Tracker rate from 2002 to 2008 except the Main Loan Offer & Loan Aplication were is specify Tracker rate.


Few points to highlight for more clarity:

1. Tracker Rate form in Loan Aplication mention that, you can change to SVR or Fix Rate without penalty nothing mention about “ Variable Base “ which most or all of uș from this thread have the same contract wording along with lots of people from Carlow which I personaly know them and they have the same contract wording.
2. Tracker Rate is for the life of the loan.
3. If you opt out you cant revert - is for life of the loan or not? See also point 1.
4. We make complaint 14 years ago and 6 years ago with no rezults even from FSO which their reply was Time Banned 6 years only.
5. I’ve try to engage with a solicitor and he charged me €246 without VAT for 1 letter, after 4 letters I give up I Could not aforded with 3 kids and all life expenses.
6. All the comunication letters from EBS they state “ Due to increase in ECB rate your rate is increasing by X amount - see TrackerThieves post with the pictures of my documents, then you believed you are on the right rate.
7. The contract is Variable Base which was Tracker in the EBS system and vocabulary (pictures will follow) Not Standard Variable Rate.
8. Tracker form from Main Loan Aplication in EBS Loan Type (ser my pictures in TrackerThieves thread) is not mention in the Loan Offer/Contract as Tracker and is mention as Variable Base because this is what allways EBS have in their system
9. In the last letter receive from them the Variable Base is changed to SVR as from now on and as from today, just like that!!!
10. On 23/01/2018 I call EBS Tracker Help Line and the reprezentative he recomend as AIB help line not as EBS.
When I informed him about the new evidence regarding the Tracker form from Main Loan Aplication, he reply that to contact FSO as per last letter, but, he mentioned that the review was extended to June 2018 and is possible that my account will be review again and they will informed with the outcome.
11. When you buy your first house you remember even what color it was the Pen when you signed the forms.

BW or anyone else can you tell me how can I reach to Padraiq Kissane as I understand is the best in Europe in dealing with Banks, Tracker, Mortgages issues.
Thank you.

Regards,
RR
 
Hi Padraic

That surprises me, because most people hadn't a clue what trackers were at the time. It's odd that so many asked.

I am further surprised that years later they would remember that they asked.

And even further surprised that when their fixed rate ended, the many people did not complain about it.

But if someone was told that. And if they took it up with EBS when the fixed rate ended, then they should get their trackers back, even if what they were told flatly contradicts the documentation.

But people who remember 12 years later the contents of a conversation and who did not raise any complaint when the fixed rate ended, have no case, in my humble opinion.

Brendan

Hi Brendan,
With all respect, not to many people know about the Tracker at that time, but if the loan aplication had only 4 options and only 2 of them apply to your circumstances as Fix rate & Tracker rate, without to be mention in any form or contract anything about SVR.
My questions:
What is the EBS Standard Variable Rate in EBS definition?
EBS customer reps they dont know to answer this question because they dont have this rate available in their internal training manuals or forms since 2002 when they start to ofer the Tracker rate - Variable Base!
When was SVR rate ever mention by EBS in their comunication between 2002 to late 2008?
Never between 2002 to 2008, was mention from 2011 onwards.
Was Standard Variable Rate part of any EBS contracts from 2002 to late 2008?No, because Main loan aplication repayments type were fix follow by prevailing Variable Base which was Tracker from 2002 to 2008.
This is explaining how 4000 customer which in AIB CEO BB and CB of Ireland 3.67% represent a small figure and customers are left in the clouds because of their simple meaning of Variable Base to Standard Variable Base.
An simple word Standard that is not part of the contract, but have the ultimate power changing and affecting our lifes, just a word change.

Regards,
RR
 
Those of you who were on tracker, fixed for few years and then were put on to SVR at the end of fixed term, has anyone received any response/letters from EBS in relation to the complaint (if you lodged one)? I had lodged a complaint over phone during end Dec when I had called up to query why our account is deemed not impacted based on the AIB statement from 21st Dec. After receiving two 28 days letters, I received a letter during last week from EBS basically outlining the same reasons (signed tracker application form & fixed rate form) for not restoring our account to tracker rate. The letter says, it's their final response regarding our complaint and we may lodge a complaint with FSPO if we want. It goes on to say, while this is their final response to the complaint we lodged in December, the central bank review is still ongoing and if anything emerges that would impact our account, they would write to us. The response in this letter is in no way different to the one we received good few years back. Yet again, they have completely ignored and haven't answered any of our below questions that were raised in our complaint few years back and again during December.

- the tracker application form states "we can switch once throughout the life of the loan without penalty".
- the fixed rate conversion form has no reference to the tracker form or indicate anywhere in the form that by fixing the rate, customers are effectively opting out of the tracker mortgage.
- the fixed rate form states "loan will convert to the applicable variable rate then prevailing", which in our case is the variable rate (tracker rate) as quoted in the loan offer.

It's disappointing to see, even at this stage they are only quoting what suits them (from the tracker form) in the response letter and not answering any of our questions.
 
Hi ,
We got this last year after complaining the year previously ( time passes I think they are hoping with time we will get worn down ) and we get an update every 28 days letter , we lodged a complaint with om who sent an excellent letter but basically are awaiting central bank finalization before reviewing . We also wrote to central bank so that they are aware of us and again letter saying review ongoing . Similarly no answers or attempt to address these . I keep asking what documentation did ebs customers who were addressed signed , no answer and it seems we signed documentation simliar to aib , who are all back on trackers . I am going to contact finance committee members .
 
The “variable interest rate basis” mentioned on the fixed term application should be specified in your loan offer according to the terms & conditions of the loan. The variable interest rate basis of your applicable variable rate is what you should have reverted to i.e. ECB + margin or SVR.

Trackers & SVR’s are both variable rates; the variable interest rate basis specified in the loan offer(or not!!) is key to a lot of EBS issues.
 

Attachments

  • 9F834A8D-FE14-4756-83D8-D7E0352E1104.jpeg
    9F834A8D-FE14-4756-83D8-D7E0352E1104.jpeg
    511.6 KB · Views: 480
The variable interest rate basis is specified in our loan offer (as below).

Interest Rate (Variable): 3.75%
Interest Rate Basis: Variable ECB Base + 1.25%

However, fixed rate conversion form we signed while fixing during Feb 2007 doesn't have "The variable interest rate basis will be specified in the loan offer letter issued by EBS (if the loan is approved)." following the "... at the end of fixed rate term loan will convert to the applicable variable rate then prevailing". I guess this existed in the "Application for a fixed mortgage rate" form, wherein you start on a fixed rate. We started on a tracker rate in April 2006, then fixed for 3 years in Feb 2007 and were put onto SVR at the end of fixed term. Not sure, if the earlier "fixed rate conversion form" (pre 2007) had this line and if it was dropped by EBS at some point.

We had complained long time back and EBS rejected our complaint noting the "Once you have chosen to opt out of the tracker mortgage, you can not switch back to this rate option." (from the tracker application form) and fixed rate conversion form claiming that, "applicable variable rate then prevailing" is the SVR. We complained again last December and the response is exactly the same. They never answered any of the questions raised either in the previous complaint few years back (noted in my previous post) and during December, but yet suggest it's their final response!
 
The variable interest rate basis is specified in our loan offer (as below).

Interest Rate (Variable): 3.75%
Interest Rate Basis: Variable ECB Base + 1.25%

However, fixed rate conversion form we signed while fixing during Feb 2007 doesn't have "The variable interest rate basis will be specified in the loan offer letter issued by EBS (if the loan is approved)." following the "... at the end of fixed rate term loan will convert to the applicable variable rate then prevailing". I guess this existed in the "Application for a fixed mortgage rate" form, wherein you start on a fixed rate. We started on a tracker rate in April 2006, then fixed for 3 years in Feb 2007 and were put onto SVR at the end of fixed term. Not sure, if the earlier "fixed rate conversion form" (pre 2007) had this line and if it was dropped by EBS at some point.

We had complained long time back and EBS rejected our complaint noting the "Once you have chosen to opt out of the tracker mortgage, you can not switch back to this rate option." (from the tracker application form) and fixed rate conversion form claiming that, "applicable variable rate then prevailing" is the SVR. We complained again last December and the response is exactly the same. They never answered any of the questions raised either in the previous complaint few years back (noted in my previous post) and during December, but yet suggest it's their final response!
Do you know anybody who originally started loan on tracker in approx 2006 before fixing for a year? Would be interesting to know what they reverted to in 2007.
 
Good point. However, I haven't come across anyone on this thread or others (related to EBS) who started on tracker around 2006 and then fixed for a year. I guess majority fixed for 3 or 5 years.
Not to say, no one did. as I don't see anyone on these threads, either no one did or those who did were back on trackers before EBS stopped offering them or happy with whatever rate they were put on to when the fixed term ended. When our fixed term was coming to an end (Feb 2010), EBS had sent us a letter outlining the options which only had SVR or Fixed. When I queried this with the EBS customer service, I was told "EBS had pulled out of the tracker market during Oct 2008 and is not offering tracker rates anymore and hence the only options available were SVR or Fixed."

Those of you who started on fixed and were put on SVR at the end of fixed term, do you all have the below in the "application for a fixed mortgage rate" you signed when starting the loan, but the "Variable Interest Rate Basis" is not stated in the loan offer?

"The variable interest rate basis will be specified in the loan offer letter issued by EBS (if the loan is approved)."

Has anyone else received final response letters from EBS in the recent weeks?
 
Good point. However, I haven't come across anyone on this thread or others (related to EBS) who started on tracker around 2006 and then fixed for a year. I guess majority fixed for 3 or 5 years.
Not to say, no one did. as I don't see anyone on these threads, either no one did or those who did were back on trackers before EBS stopped offering them or happy with whatever rate they were put on to when the fixed term ended. When our fixed term was coming to an end (Feb 2010), EBS had sent us a letter outlining the options which only had SVR or Fixed. When I queried this with the EBS customer service, I was told "EBS had pulled out of the tracker market during Oct 2008 and is not offering tracker rates anymore and hence the only options available were SVR or Fixed."

Those of you who started on fixed and were put on SVR at the end of fixed term, do you all have the below in the "application for a fixed mortgage rate" you signed when starting the loan, but the "Variable Interest Rate Basis" is not stated in the loan offer?

"The variable interest rate basis will be specified in the loan offer letter issued by EBS (if the loan is approved)."

Has anyone else received final response letters from EBS in the recent weeks?

Those who fixed from the start were put onto a rate called a “variable base
(currently 5.25%”) after the end of fixed term. This rate corresponded exactly to the advertised tracker rate and variable rate (SVR) between 2004 & mid 2008. The problem is that there is no mention of the word SVR & no interest rate basis in the loan offers of customers who started on a fixed rate. However the fixed rate application form that was signed by those who started on a fixed term does include that statement:

“The variable interest rate basis will be specified in the loan offer letter issued by EBS (if the loan is approved)."

What’s more the EBS terms & conditions booklet that customers were given when they signed the loan states that “the basis of the interest rate on which the loan is calculated is stated in the loan offer.” But it’s not in the fixed term loan offers. Those who started on a tracker do have the variable interest rate basis specified in their contracts i.e. ECB + margin.

Did they actually use the term “Standard Variable Rate” in their written correspondence with you in February 2010 or did it say “variable” or “variable rate” or
“variable base rate”?

I received a final response letter in July 2017 but another letter containing more evidence supporting my case was sent into EBS in January 2018 & in response to that they now say i’m back in the central bank review, and it will now take “months” to resolve.

For what it’s worth I think the EBS loan offers, rates & associated documents lack clarity, omit important details and are ambiguous. In the case of the fixed rate conversion form they are just plain contradictory and non-sensical.

Between 2004-2008 EBS tracker loan offers used the term “variable” when defining the interest rate type and basis but the word “tracker” is not actually used. To make things more confusing, during that same time period the term “standard variable rate” is not used anywhere in their loan offers when describing the rate type or basis. There is lots of evidence to suggest that they did not actually offer a “standard variable rate” to new customers during the time period in question and in fact all of their “variable” products are trackers. In the fixed rate conversion form it also says you should “convert to the applicable variable rate then prevailing.” My reading of that is that your “applicable variable rate” is the tracker and not a SVR.
 
Last edited:
Totally agree! Yes, the letter they sent with options during early Feb 2010 had both SVR & Variable terms used at different places (see attached). I had called EBS to query this and was told "EBS had pulled out of the tracker market during Oct 2008 and is not offering tracker rates anymore and hence the only options available were SVR or Fixed." I was innocent enough to believe them at that time like many others! It's only during late 2012 when I read articles in the media on what banks had done, I went back querying again and subsequently lodging a complaint. We have written back questioning their so called final response letter received 2 weeks back and their failings in answering our queries repeatedly.

I saw the below on a different EBS thread on this forum. This looks somewhat similar to your case and others who started off on fixed. Only difference is, when your fixed period ended, EBS weren't offering trackers anymore. This is the same reason I was given by their CSR as to why we can't go back to tracker rate during Feb 2010.

We took out our original mortgage in Nov 2004 on a 'teaser' fixed rate for one year.
When that expired, we were given a range of options (fixed, SVR, tracker).

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/ebs-question-re-tracker-2005.198399/

Padraic Kissane will be at the finance committee this morning @11:30, so will be interesting to see how this goes.
 

Attachments

  • Fixed_term_End_Options.jpg
    Fixed_term_End_Options.jpg
    208 KB · Views: 462
Back
Top