Defence forces to get 28.5% pay rise

[Gordon Gekko]

Not involved in Defence Forces but from 2015 Stats (Journal.ie Dec 29th 2015)

"The Defence Forces has released its stats for army operations over the past year, revealing the explosive ordnance disposal team were called out 145 times.
Bomb disposal comes under the army’s remit for providing aid to civil powers.
Other examples from this year include:

• 130 prisoner escorts
• 11 explosives escorts
• 260 personnel were involved in the security operation for the royal visit in May"

Then there is: http://www.military.ie/overseas/ where they are in harms way + the Med rescue + Sea Rescue

There is probably more but they are the last line of Gov Support if Civil authorities overwhelmed.

Maybe there is more

This has to be a wind-up.

A bit of craic when some farmer finds an old grenade.

Escorting some yahoo to prison or a container of fertiliser to the train station.

And watching whilst MI5/MI6 etc guard the British Royal Family.

The Irish Armed Forces would be up there with the Qatari Blue Movie Appreciation Society in terms of relevance.

 

[cremeegg]

No one has systematically exploited the Irish taxpayer more effectively than members of the defence forces.

I think that is an exceptionally unfair and disingenuous comment. I think any fair minded person would agree that your claim is wholly untrue and lacks any credible evidence.

I think my comment is very reasonable and supported by the evidence I have quoted. You disagree, but you have quoted no evidence to support your opinion.

Again, the thread is about pay. There is no answer to this line of questioning. There is no equating risk (in the security sense) to reward in the PS, so what has this got to do with anything?

I would completely agree with you here. My comments deriding the risks faced by the Irish Defence Forces were in response to a poster who seems to think that they run great risk on a nightly basis. This is of course not relevant as you suggest, and is a distraction from the question of pay, and a 28.5% pay rise.

 

[Purple]

A bit of craic when some farmer finds an old grenade.

The Irish Army actually has a really good reputation internationally for bomb disposal. The IRA gave them plenty of practice and the drug dealers are keeping them fresh.

 

[monagt]

IMHO the army is like Fire Insurance, you need it & don't want to have to use it

 

[cremeegg]

IMHO the army is like Fire Insurance, you need it & don't want to have to use it

There is another similarity with insurance. You run the risk that when you do need it you discover that it won't protect you.

 

[monagt]

This has to be a wind-up.
A bit of craic when some farmer finds an old grenade.
Escorting some yahoo to prison or a container of fertiliser to the train station.
And watching whilst MI5/MI6 etc guard the British Royal Family.
The Irish Armed Forces would be up there with the Qatari Blue Movie Appreciation Society in terms of relevance.

I do not agree with that, they guard vital Installations, Airports, including the Houses of the Oireachtas, provide security to money convoys, etc.

 

[Jim2007]

You make it sound like we live in Somalia, rather than a neutral republic in Western Europe.

Everyday the navy contacts boardings. You do not know what is awaiting you when you do - illegal fishing, usually not a big deal, unless someone decides to be stupid and tries to prevent you from boarding, drugs etc... then you may very well encounter people carrying arms.

 

[Itchy]

Emotionally, I would be proud of the country if we had the courage to forgo the illusory safety of a "defence" force. It would put us in a much stronger position to suggest that other countries should reduce their arms spending.

Your real issue seems to be with Irish security policy. No need to denigrate the people who enact current policy.

I personally don't understand the hate towards the organisation.

There are two factors here; making policy and enacting policy. Having no credible air defence capability is Gov policy. It is not the DF fault that resources are supplied elsewhere for other tasks. The fact that there are Armed Guards on watchtowers in Portlaoise Prison is Gov policy. The efficacy of Gov Policy should not be used to bash the service implementing the policy. Now if those Guards are asleep on the watchtowers that is a DF issue and you can comment on how useless or otherwise our DF are.

When they are tasked, they do the best job they can with what they have, same as nurses, AGS, Fire service etc. Except the one difference with those services is that they are not subject to the Defence Act. The Gov is exploiting members in terms of pay & conditions because they can. It is FLASE to take the line of the OP.

 

[cremeegg]

Your real issue seems to be with Irish security policy.

What security policy ?

No need to denigrate the people who enact current policy.

I was denigrating those who successfully sued state for €300 million, for largely illusory suffering.

I personally don't understand the hate towards the organisation.

I don't hate the organisation. I have nothing but contempt for the individuals who saw an opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of the taxpayer and exploited it as far as possible.

There are two factors here; making policy and enacting policy. Having no credible air defence capability is Gov policy.

We have no credible security policy full stop. Nor perhaps do we need one. We are fortunate in the relative lack of threat to our military security.

The Gov is exploiting members in terms of pay & conditions because they can. It is FLASE to take the line of the OP.

By giving them a 28.5% pay rise. You cannot seriously think that is exploitation.

 

[Itchy]

I was denigrating those who successfully sued state for €300 million, for largely illusory suffering.

I don't hate the organisation. I have nothing but contempt for the individuals who saw an opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of the taxpayer and exploited it as far as possible.

The courts didnt think it was illusory at the time and awarded the money. Then it evolved into a class action. It was twenty years ago.

We have no credible security policy full stop. Nor perhaps do we need one. We are fortunate in the relative lack of threat to our military security.

Well thanks for your security assessment, hopefully the Minister for Defence is reading this. If the situation is as you say, perhaps then there is a case to give full TU status to the DF Representative associations, the full application of the working time directive, overtime, removal of the restriction on the right to strike, full access to the Labour Court and WRC.

By giving them a 28.5% pay rise.

There's no 28.5%. There is the LRA.

 

[cremeegg]

Well thanks for your security assessment, hopefully the Minister for Defence is reading this. If the situation is as you say, perhaps then there is a case to give full TU status to the DF Representative associations, the full application of the working time directive, overtime, removal of the restriction on the right to strike, full access to the Labour Court and WRC.

Yes just before they are all made redundant.

There's no 28.5%. There is the LRA.

Perhaps not. You can to believe whatever you wish, irrespective of the evidence, The Irish Times reported this morning that a 3 star private is getting a raise from €21,000 to €27,000. You can believe that is not a 28% pay rise if you if you wish.

 

[Purple]

The Irish Times reported this morning that a 3 star private is getting a raise from €21,000 to €27,000. You can believe that is not a 28% pay rise if you if you wish.

It's not a great rate of pay though, is it... but then again they must retire after 21 years service. NCO's and officers can serve for longer if they wish. They get their pension from the age of 50. What's that worth?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

I do not agree with that, they guard vital Installations, Airports, including the Houses of the Oireachtas, provide security to money convoys, etc.

Like many people, I travel a reasonable amount and I've never seen the army at Dublin Airport.

And like many people, I walk around Dublin a reasonable amount and I've never seen the army outside the Dail etc (where there are Gardai).

The money conveys are paid for by the banks as I understand it.

 

[Itchy]

Perhaps not. You can to believe whatever you wish, irrespective of the evidence, The Irish Times reported this morning that a 3 star private is getting a raise from €21,000 to €27,000. You can believe that is not a 28% pay rise if you if you wish.

I'm not disputing the maths, I'm disputing the claim. But unfortunately it seems like you wont believe it until its published in the IT.

 

[TheBigShort]

While the Irish Defense Forces are probably under-paid and under-fundued it is laughable to suggest they are putting their lives at risk for this country on a daily basis. It is statistically one of the safest jobs in the country.

If I may, I think the point may be that they are preparing, or prepared to, put their lives at risk for the sake of the country when called upon.
No-one knows when or if that will ever occur, but history tells us, it probably will at some point.
Last point, soldiers traveling to war-torn areas as UN peace-keepers are putting their lives out there and front.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jadotville

Regardless of the outcome, they put themselves forward to the job most of us wouldn't dream of (after the age 14 when we understood that war is crap).

But they do it, and they should be appropriately remunerated. Just as long as it doesn't use up 50% of the tax take.

 

[TheBigShort]

Like many people, I travel a reasonable amount and I've never seen the army at Dublin Airport.

And like many people, I walk around Dublin a reasonable amount and I've never seen the army outside the Dail etc (where there are Gardai).

The money conveys are paid for by the banks as I understand it.

Why do you want to see the army so much? Is it the uniform?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Why do you want to see the army so much? Is it the uniform?

I think that your condition is known as "psychological projection".

 

[Itchy]

Like many people, I travel a reasonable amount and I've never seen the army at Dublin Airport.

And like many people, I walk around Dublin a reasonable amount and I've never seen the army outside the Dail etc (where there are Gardai).

The money conveys are paid for by the banks as I understand it.

Gordon, again with regard to pay this is a nonsensical argument. I regularly walk the streets of Dublin and I don't see the Garda National Surveillance Unit, I dont see Garda Motorcycle Escort bikes driving around?? So what? If you spend any time in Portlaoise Prison you will see them. Pop by around dinner time on Christmas Day and I guarantee you will see them.

This narrative that they dont do anything for me in my everyday life is ridiculous and disingenuous. The security of the state and its citizens has to be paramount otherwise everything else is for nought. The reality is they are out there doing the job assigned to them. Now if they are deployed or employed incorrectly that is a Government decision but when they are deployed to do a task they do it well.

I just dont think its right that over 200 DF families are on Family Income Supplement. I dont think that its right, that the right to take any action and stand up for yourself is denied to them and then exploited to such an extent that the wives and partners have to club together to make any kind of noise about it. I dont think its right that the DF are excluded from a public sector pay discussions and deals are done with other more militant unions in order to get one over the DF.

While the Irish Defense Forces are probably under-paid and under-funded it is laughable to suggest they are putting their lives at risk for this country on a daily basis.

The only thing thats laughable is the brazenness with which you can sit behind your computer and type that uninformed comment safe in the knowledge that its somebody else's son or daughter next. Utterly shameful.

 

[Leper]

Great! Close down the army and while we're at it sell whatever ships our navy has and pawn them off at a few hundred thousand euro less than they are worth again and what do we need our Air Corps for so close down Baldonnel and build houses there. The FCA will protect dear old Ireland and how we will all sleep more soundly in Ireland. We don't miss the army until we need it. If my memory serves me right the army provided protection for road money transfers within our banking system at the expense of the taxpayer. Our post-offices were occupied by our army back in the 1970's when the IRA were robbing us for their payments to arms dealers and also to finance their beliefs that they could bomb the north into a united Ireland.

Let's take the issue of hearing damage and the compensation claims. These claims were small compared to the average weekly litigation payout of each Maternity Consultant to upstanding women and men of Ireland. Our Defence Forces are getting a raise in their wages in excess of 20%. But, 20% of a small amount will still be a small amount.

 

[Purple]

The only thing thats laughable is the brazenness with which you can sit behind your computer and type that uninformed comment safe in the knowledge that its somebody else's son or daughter next. Utterly shameful.

Next? How many Irish troops have been killed in combat in the last 50 years? The people who build houses are more at risk. I'm not saying they are well paid. I'm not saying that they are unskilled. I'm not saying they don't do a good job. I am saying that the argument that they are putting their lives at rick for the security of the State is, by any realistic empirical measure, nonsense.

Great! Close down the army and while we're at it sell whatever ships our navy has and pawn them off at a few hundred thousand euro less than they are worth again and what do we need our Air Corps for so close down Baldonnel and build houses there. The FCA will protect dear old Ireland and how we will all sleep more soundly in Ireland.

You're a great man for the hyperbole Leper!
In most countries a Coast Guard does what our Navy does. and locked Switzerland and Austria have bigger Navy's than us. Our army is no realistic deterrent from attack by any force which would realistically attack us. Why do we have it? What is it for?
As I said, my heart says yes; they have distinguished themselves all over the world with the UN, but my head says no; we could carry out the same State security function better by integrating them into the police and a State intelligence service.