Compensation for mica contaminated blocks in houses.

[Leo]

go tell that to the other Leo Michael and Eamon, If the state fails to regulate and it directly affects the electorate Going legal and you are toast,
Michael Noonan went legal remember how that finished up,

No, that's not liability. Politicians making a decision due to popular (or noisy) demand to improve their chances of reelection does not in any way make the state liable.

 

[kinnjohn]

But, to quote Pat Rabbitte..

“Yeah, well, I mean, isn’t that what you tend to do during an election?”

While I wouldn't often agree with him, I think he is right here. Political promises are fickle. Sometimes, when facts change the promise should change.

The news cycle is now talking about the redress scheme costing more than €3bn. I think this is the beginning of the govt offensive to control the message.

Labour had 37 seats when Pat made his famous quote in 2013 at the next election in2016 labour had its worst election in its 104 year history going from 37 seats to 7 well done Pat,

At the last General Election, the Groups representing homes affected by Mica codded the main political parties up to their eyeballs, now in government, they are up to their neck in a 3 Billion so-called fickle promise that politically they will have to honor or finish up like Pats Party,

If you take Donegal a 5 seater
the present Government has 2 seats
First if you want to see a 3 Billion smile GOOGLE McHugh among FG Delegation who met the 3 billion?
Joe McHugh got 9.84% of the first preferences for FG and was elected
Charlie McConalogue got 10.78% of the first preferences for FF and was elected
between them, they got 20.62% of the first preference vote

Pearse Doherty for SF got 27.17 on his own and was elected
Padraig Maclochlainn for SF got 17.93% on his own and was elected,

Thomas Pringle Independent got 7.07% on his own and was elected,

and Pats Labour party got no votes they did not field anyone, surprising seeing there are lots of smoked around salmon Killybegs,

 

[RetirementPlan]

Banks don't certify anything, their only aim is to protect their own interests.

The challenge here is that the principle of caveat emptor applies to property purchasers here. There is certification of some materials that are used in construction, but little in the way of guarantees over the finished product. Homebond have made a nice business of offering cover against structural defects for new homes, but if the threads on here over the years are anything to go by, claiming can be problematic.

Buyers are strongly advised to engage appropriate expertise to survey property in advance of purchases, but while they will have liability insurance, they will generally have pretty extensive exclusions in their contracts.

I remember our solicitor made a big fuss about how bad the standard Law Society house purchase contract is, in terms of consumer protection when we buying our house. That's a good few years ago, so I don't know if it has gotten any better.

I think Homebond hasn't covered the pyrites or mica issues for whatever reason, so buyers are left badly exposed.

They will want hi spec replacement houses...
Underfloor heating, solar panels, big fridges with ice and water dispensers.

Honestly, if the State is funding rebuilds, we should certainly be ensuring a high standard of insulation.

 

[Leo]

I remember our solicitor made a big fuss about how bad the standard Law Society house purchase contract is, in terms of consumer protection when we buying our house. That's a good few years ago, so I don't know if it has gotten any better.

There probably should be very different contracts for purchasing a new home that would offer warranties against defects like you get by default when buying a toaster. Second hand you're always going to be taking your chances to a degree.

 

[kinnjohn]

A listener to Today with Claire Byrne suggested that the valuation used for the local property tax be used. That would be an interesting study to compare that valuation and what’s now being claimed.

If you want the full story GOOGLE mica FG Donegal Leo says 100%
you will see two very nice 3 billion

 

[rustbucket]

The problem is they gave their word before the last general election to groups affected, I am not from or connected to any of the groups affected,
I read reports of their meetings in the national papers at the time, so it is no secret,
I can't understand why people are upset with the main political parties being held to account for undertakings given at elections
time,

That’s a different take to your earlier stance where you hold them responsible because of no regulation

 

[kinnjohn]

They had to they did not want to be connected with lack of regulation, the Galway tent was still fresh in peoples minds back then,
I cant understand posters jumping up and down when they knew well the main political parties created the culture
they are not happy about , yet they will go out and vote for more of the same, and expect a different result,

 

[Delboy]

If there was a selection of design to chose from (all to todays specification) that effected families could select, this would be more manageable (to cost, to project plan etc) than having how many thousand different builds. Today I can't see how this can be controlled as every building is potentially different and unique. If it only cost 3 billion I'd be impressed.

Exactly this. This could cost double the 3bn figure quoted today for all we know. They were still selling mica blocks in August 2020 according to a report on RTE today.
There is no way the Irish taxpayer should be replacing 3,000 - 4,000 sq ft houses in the middle of the countryside. And us already one of the most indebted states in the OECD.
A selection of designs as stated above and take it or leave it. Might even be an opportunity to use pre-fabricated builds as discussed on other threads and have them manufactured here given the potential demand involved.

 

[Baby boomer]

I'm imagining this happened to me. Suppose my house was crumbling dangerously around my ears through no fault of my own. And suppose it would cost hundreds of thousands to put right. Money which I don't really have. But then I'm imagining that my neighbours, workmates and people I don't even know - many of whom are worse off than I am - come together and organise a whip around to help me out. Wonderful, I'd imagine I must be delighted! Imagine they present me with the proceeds, which come to 90% of the remediation costs. Imagine I throw it back in their faces telling them that I want an entirely new house, plus rent while it's being built, plus compensation for my mental distress, and I expect them to pay for it all.

I don't imagine they'd be best pleased, do you?

 

[kinnjohn]

I'm imagining this happened to me. Suppose my house was crumbling dangerously around my ears through no fault of my own. And suppose it would cost hundreds of thousands to put right. Money which I don't really have. But then I'm imagining that my neighbours, workmates and people I don't even know - many of whom are worse off than I am - come together and organise a whip around to help me out. Wonderful, I'd imagine I must be delighted! Imagine they present me with the proceeds, which come to 90% of the remediation costs. Imagine I throw it back in their faces telling them that I want an entirely new house, plus rent while it's being built, plus compensation for my mental distress, and I expect them to pay for it all.

I don't imagine they'd be best pleased, do you?

But The people who are better off than you found a money tree and are promising you 100% would you not take it,

Google FG mica Donegal if you do not believe your luck is in,

Don't feel bad about taking it if you don't take it they are going to give it to someone else, The are not going to stop until there is no more money left on the tree,
You better get a move on the next crowd might not be as generous,

 

[Baby boomer]

Of course I'd take it - who wouldn't? It's a wonderful deal for the householders - a disaster for everyone else. Basically a blank cheque to the builders in Donegal. What could possibly go wrong?

Here's an idea, though: give the affected householders a lifetime interest free loan for whatever it'll cost to repair or rebuild. Loan is secured via a charge on their property and their estate. Allow the charge to be transferred to another property if they want to trade up or down. Levy the insurance/ building/ block industry to pay the interest on the loan.

Burden sharing, you could call it. Reasonably fair to everyone, eh?

 

[kinnjohn]

Burden sharing is not in their DNA Its all about pulling strokes in return for votes no matter how much it cost,
SF is like the conservative party compared to them,

 

[fidelcastro]

Perhaps this saga shows the need for potential Irish home owners to finally wake up and see the advantage of ready made factory built housing.. fast, high quality modern manufacturing processes at reasonable cost, methods standard in Europe, and warm to live in.

But no, it's still follows the word of the CIF. vested interest " Concrete built is better built ", Tom Parland delivers, mind me sandwiches, builders cracks, crap on site build techniques, vastly overpriced system.

Pyrite, mica, fire safety, shoddy houses, with thousands of people at risk of homeless every week due to shortages and poor outcomes for all of society ( we all have friends, young people students siblings affected.) by this awful system.

Depressing, but expected. Time to wake up people

 

[kinnjohn]

It is depressing,
For me, the most depressing part is the well-informed are criticizing the victims and not a bad word for the awful system which leads to such bad outcomes for both taxpayers and victims,
It looks like there are over 400 social houses affected in Donegal alone, Reports in the Irish times say over 1000 are affected,

Donegal County Council are making an application to the government for funding at present, they will have a head start when it comes to rebuilding homes,

 

[kinnjohn]

Because insurance won't retrospectively cover building defects.


Builders should be legally liable for building defects found within ten years of construction. Sure, this will be expensive to insure against and will be passed on to consumers. But it's probably better than ad hoc state schemes like this.

Freedom of information reports shows the government looked at putting a levy on building Insurance the Insurance Industry threatened legal action and the Government dropped the Idea,

how could Builders be legally liable when most of the blocks used passed existing state standards in force at the time
of building, granted reports say the state had no equipment to check the standard was met, which seems strange as I always understood the regional collages had such equipment but maybe the state never used it to check standards,

looks like the groups representing those affected hold all the cards, and have their homework done,

 

[time to plan]

1) What exactly did the state fail to regulate?

2) What legal principle makes the state liable for the consequences of not regulating something?

2) is again missing the point. If the state had a legal liability, the matter would be resolved in court. The question is one of public interest and fairness. There are many things that the state pays money on for which it has no legal liability. So really this is a judgment call on whether or not this is a sensible spending priority. But arguments about legal liability of the state don’t progress the discussion.

 

[kinnjohn]

2) is again missing the point. If the state had a legal liability, the matter would be resolved in court. The question is one of public interest and fairness. There are many things that the state pays money on for which it has no legal liability. So really this is a judgment call on whether or not this is a sensible spending priority. But arguments about legal liability of the state don’t progress the discussion.

I don't know who you are,all I can say is you are correct, The question is one of public interest and fairness but the state seam to not want it to come to that,

The Irish Times reports that up to 1000 local authority houses in Donegal are affected, If the state wanted to it could bring a case through the local authorities rather than payout up to 3.2 Billion of taxpayers money

knowing the state and the local authorities I suspect it did not builds 1000 houses without checking the material to the state standards,
now you will have to figure out the rest yourself,

 

[kinnjohn]

In my humble opinion, I feel the home owners are getting well compensated for their houses, but they say they want 100% compensation from the tax payer. 100% of what exactly and why aren't the block makers being sued? What do others think?

Leo Varadkar and Michael Martin Don't think so, Both are calling for 100% compensation the only Issue they have is the cost,

If the block makers get sued it Could open up an unthinkable can of worms,

To be honest, the state getting out of this mess for 3.2 Billion is cheap, this could roll into something away bigger if not checked in time,

 

[Baby boomer]

If the block makers get sued it Could open up an unthinkable can of worms...

The block manufacturers could well be sued. Straightforward enough case, I would expect. And you could easily rack up judgments against them for multiple billions. Then the question is: do the block manufacturers have billions in assets? Because if they don't, your judgment is nothing but an expensive useless piece of paper.

Although the liquidators and the lawyers will love you - they're first in the queue to be paid.

 

[noproblem]

If the block makers get sued it Could open up an unthinkable can of worms,

Why would you say something like that?