Brexit

[Duke of Marmalade]

B/S you have an amazing knack of stirring it considering that most of your utterances are B/S.

I note now that you do not regard it as a "right" that Irish speakers can communicate in Irish with the organs of the State. Rather you believe they have the "right" to lobby for that facility. That rather neatly deals with the Polish question but do you not get a slight stench of B/S from that odd nuance.

Look, I understand the obsession down here with promoting the Irish language. It has a slight linkage to anti British sentiment but it is not really maliciously targeted at any section of the Southern populace.

In the NI however the Irish thing has nothing to do with protecting the "rights" of 1,500 folk who use it as their first language but is all about rubbing the noses of one community in the manure, showing them who won the war. Just as the Flags thing has nothing to do with paying homage to Her Majesty but all to do with rubbing the noses of the other community in the manure, showing them that they didn't win the war.

 

[TheBigShort]

Because they weren't asked if they need it or have an interest in it, they were asked if they had the ability?

Yes, and thinking about it logically – a native speaker or fluent speaker will obviously answer Yes, if they are being truthful.
A person who has reasonable level of Irish will also, most likely answer Yes, if they are being truthful.
A person with a poor level of Irish will, if being truthful, could answer Yes or No.

Technically speaking, if I can say one word in Irish, then being truthful, I should answer the question – Yes.
Logically speaking, if I only have a few words, then being truthful, I should answer the question – No.

So while technically the 1.6m understates the ability of Irish people to speak Irish (I would say 4m+ would be a closer figure as most people can speak a few words of Irish). Logically, the 1.6m overstates the number of Irish people with the ability to speak Irish (effectively).

So why are all these people, answering a very simple logical question as Yes, when they should be answering No?

Alternatively, why are all these people, answering a very simple technical question as No, when they should be answering Yes.

I put it down to this, either you are a person who is broadly supportive of the preservation of Irish language, someone who acknowledges its cultural significance, someone who can identify with as being part of their culture or,

You are someone who see’s little value in its continued existence, who thinks it is a dead language and has no future, who cant identify with it as being part of your culture.

Im guessing the former, in answering the census question, will tend to qualify their cúpla focal as Yes - I have the ability to speak Irish. The latter will answer, most likely, as No, I have not the ability to speak Irish.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

B/S I believe that the support for the Irish language has broad consensus across the Republic - no need for forensic analysis of the census to assert that.

I think I started this Irish thing in the context of NI which is an entirely different kettle of fish as explained in my previous post.

 

[cremeegg]

B/S you have an amazing knack of stirring it considering that most of your utterances are B/S.

I note now that you do not regard it as a "right" that Irish speakers can communicate in Irish with the organs of the State. Rather you believe they have the "right" to lobby for that facility. That rather neatly deals with the Polish question but do you not get a slight stench of B/S from that odd nuance.

On the contrary, I thought he skewered you rather neatly there.

 

[TheBigShort]

B/S I believe that the support for the Irish language has broad consensus across the Republic - no need for forensic analysis of the census to assert that.

I think I started this Irish thing in the context of NI which is an entirely different kettle of fish as explained in my previous post.

I don't see it as a different kettle of fish. These are Irish people, living in Ireland, with rights and entitlements like everyone else. They have successfully mandated their political representatives to pursue an Irish language Act to such a point that it is part of negotiated settlement supported by the British and Irish governments.

 

[TheBigShort]

B/S you have an amazing knack of stirring it considering that most of your utterances are B/S.

An amazing knack of ‘stirring things’ he says, while demeaning my contributions in derogatory form.

I note now that you do not regard it as a "right" that Irish speakers can communicate in Irish with the organs of the State. Rather you believe they have the "right" to lobby for that facility. That rather neatly deals with the Polish question but do you not get a slight stench of B/S from that odd nuance.

The Polish language, the last time I checked, was not in danger of extinction anytime soon. So that is why I wouldn’t think there to be any great impetus from Polish people to pursue similar legislative rights in Ireland for their language. I don’t know about you, but I think that is a pretty logical view to have.

Certainly, if there was an attempt, to wipe Poland, its people and culture off the face of the earth, save for the last remaining Poles living in Ireland, then Im sure that would change. I would certainly support such a campaign.

And for your information, here is some detail of how the Russians tried to do exactly that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Poland_and_Lithuania

Look, I understand the obsession down here with promoting the Irish language. It has a slight linkage to anti British sentiment but it is not really maliciously targeted at any section of the Southern populace.

Yes, there are those who use it as a banner, or cover to express their identity and who can only speak a few words at best. But that is not any reason to deny those native speakers, or those fluent speakers who wish to genuinely promote and support the Irish language in its own right.

In the NI however the Irish thing has nothing to do with protecting the "rights" of 1,500 folk who use it as their first language but is all about rubbing the noses of one community in the manure, showing them who won the war. Just as the Flags thing has nothing to do with paying homage to Her Majesty but all to do with rubbing the noses of the other community in the manure, showing them that they didn't win the war.

That is your view, and I accept that there are those who use the Irish language as a cloak for more nefarious means. But again, it is no excuse to deny those who genuinely support the language and who have lobbied successfully to have legislative protections put in place.

It is not a SF project, it is supported by the SDLP and Irish Government and the Alliance Party and the Green Party. It has broad-based support.

 

[Firefly]

The Polish language, the last time I checked, was not in danger of extinction anytime soon.

What about socialists? Do you think they are in danger of extinction at this stage? Time to gather your comrades I think and start lobbying before those greedy capitalists, in pursuit of unfettered profits, take over!

 

[Firefly]

Certainly, if there was an attempt, to wipe Poland, its people and culture off the face of the earth, save for the last remaining Poles living in Ireland, then Im sure that would change. I would certainly support such a campaign.

Jees, that's a bit harsh on the Poles

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It is not a SF project, it is supported by the SDLP and Irish Government and the Alliance Party and the Green Party. It has broad-based support.

That is a fair point. But I suspect that the Alliance idea of an ILA is quite different from the Shinner idea. My guess is the former would support funding education programs and things like that whereas I suspect the Shinners are looking for a far greater "rub their noses in it" version. It's about time, if NI wants to think of itself as a transparent democracy, that the detailed differences of opinion by the parties on this issue, which seems to be the stumbling block, were made known to the people at large.

 

[TheBigShort]

if NI wants to think of itself as a transparent democracy, t

That's the problem with NI. It's very existence is predicated on one thing, the refusal of Unionists to accept to live in equal partnership with their neighbours. If they ever accept this, NI will fold in the morning. It will have no basis to exist.
Brexit is a fools gold for NI.

 

[Jim2007]

It's very existence is predicated on one thing, the refusal of Unionists to accept to live in equal partnership with their neighbours.

And that is exactly the problem - the assumption that it is all the other sides fault.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

B/S I think I see your perspective. You are talking about the rights of the language/culture itself rather than of its speakers. Thus if Polish as a language found that Ireland was its last bastion you yourself would campaign for its survival. I was more referring to the rights of people who speak Irish being able to engage with the organs of the state in their first language. From that perspective Polish speaking people have much greater claim than Irish speaking people in NI.

As I understand your perspective, even if, indeed especially if, nobody at all spoke Irish in NI you would want an ILA.

 

[TheBigShort]

And that is exactly the problem - the assumption that it is all the other sides fault.

Yes, but in a democratic society we can lay blame on each other all day long without resorting to gerrymandering, sectarian discrimination, denial of right to protest, internment, collusion, censorship, shoot to kill...and now, refusal to recognize the reality of marriage equality, language rights, abortion rights etc.
If NI wants to survive (and basically only a small minority of Irish people actually support the partition of the island and it's people's) it has to embrace the reality of 2017 and on, and stop embracing ( as opposed to commemorating) the past of religious supremacy as the means of controlling society.
By all means, worship and pray, but NI needs to acknowledge diversification. If (when) it does, NI will collapse.
As long as the Republic remains socially progressive, the collapse of NI is inevitable.

 

[TheBigShort]

You are talking about the rights of the language/culture itself rather than of its speakers.

To a point, yes, but one without the other is somewhat moot.

Thus if Polish as a language found that Ireland was its last bastion you yourself would campaign for its survival.

I wouldn't object to such a campaign, certainly I couldn't think of any reason not to offer some form of support to achieve such rights in this republic.

I was more referring to the rights of people who speak Irish being able to engage with the organs of the state in their first language. From that perspective Polish speaking people have much greater claim than Irish speaking people in NI.

But is anybody denying Polish people that right? I haven't heard of anything like that, have you?
If there is a movement for Polish speakers to obtain the similar rights as Irish language speakers to engage with state services then I have no objection to that, would you?
The distinguishing features in all of this is that Irish is a language in decline, as distinct to Polish (despite the efforts of Russia), and even more, if Irish people don't organise to protect the Irish language, will anybody?
So it is incumbent of us who support the preservation and promotion of the Irish language to do all we can, through the democratic process, to achieve our aims.
It is incumbent of those who wish to see the back of the Irish language, and let it die out completely, to do all they can, through the democratic process, to achieve their aims.
Currently, the Irish language has substantial support, primarily from Irish people, but not exclusively.

As I understand your perspective, even if, indeed especially if, nobody at all spoke Irish in NI you would want an ILA.

No, one without other is superficial.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

No, one without other is superficial.

So if only one person spoke Irish in NI (in practical terms that is the case) you would support an ILA. But if she got run over by a bus the need for an ILA disappears?

 

[TheBigShort]

So if only one person spoke Irish in NI (in practical terms that is the case) you would support an ILA. But if she got run over by a bus the need for an ILA disappears?

Now who is trolling?

As an individual I support the concept of an Irish language Act on the basis that as a language, it is in decline and I recognize it as part of my culture. This is regardless of how many people actually speak it.
It transpires, that aside from the 74,000 native speakers (who deserve their rights, regardless of my own aspirations) there is a sizeable body of Irish people, who are not native speakers, not fluent speakers, but yet support the notion of an Irish language Act (or Official Language Act in the Republic).
The native speakers combined with the learned speakers have, collectively, agitated for, and to a greater or lesser degree, succeeded in keeping the Irish language from extinction. They have used the legislature, through democratic means, to assist with their aims.
I am supportive of those aims.
This process is open to all in a republic.

So here is a question for you.

If Polish, or Chinese people began a campaign for language rights, equal to Irish language rights, would you object?

 

[TheBigShort]

What about socialists? Do you think they are in danger of extinction at this stage?

No, do you?

 

[galway_blow_in]

B/S you have an amazing knack of stirring it considering that most of your utterances are B/S.

I note now that you do not regard it as a "right" that Irish speakers can communicate in Irish with the organs of the State. Rather you believe they have the "right" to lobby for that facility. That rather neatly deals with the Polish question but do you not get a slight stench of B/S from that odd nuance.

Look, I understand the obsession down here with promoting the Irish language. It has a slight linkage to anti British sentiment but it is not really maliciously targeted at any section of the Southern populace.

In the NI however the Irish thing has nothing to do with protecting the "rights" of 1,500 folk who use it as their first language but is all about rubbing the noses of one community in the manure, showing them who won the war. Just as the Flags thing has nothing to do with paying homage to Her Majesty but all to do with rubbing the noses of the other community in the manure, showing them that they didn't win the war.

if loyalists are made insecure by a collective will to maintain and grow the irish language , they are a pretty paranoid bunch , i dont vote SF and are unlikely ever to but i have zero time for the DUP view on this one

 

[TheBigShort]

Yeah, but look at all the value-added jobs it created!

There must be money in this somewhere for someone?

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.rte.i.../834370-duolingo-language-learning-app-irish/

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So here is a question for you.

If Polish, or Chinese people began a campaign for language rights, equal to Irish language rights, would you object?

Absolutely. The idea that doing your Leaving Cert Maths or whatever using Irish, Polish, Chinese or whatever gains you bonus points seems so unfair to me.

And here's where NI politics is so poisoned. A bonus for doing A Levels in Irish is clearly of advantage to only one community so that, as with most things up there, an ostensibly noble cause takes on a distinct sectarian hue.

Reverting to topic. DUP have prioritised Ulster farmers in their Brexit stance. I am surprised no-one has picked up on this for again whilst appearing harmless it is in fact deeply sectarian. Not only are that constituency largely from one community but a situation where Ulster farmers where subsidised and Irish farmers where subject to tariffs would be disastrous for the latter and a wet dream for Paisleyites.

I repeat my suspicion that the DUP wouldn't mind a wall between NI and ROI provided WM subsidised any economic loss. Of course it won't come to that but with their new found power you can can be sure that ROI's interests in Brexit negotiations are at considerable risk.