Any rumours will they tax landlords less than current full tax rate?

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Today's Sunday Times reports that :

"It is expected that while both renters and landlords will be given tax credits, the benefit for landlords will be limited to those who are willing to offer their tenants security in five or ten-year leases".

 
5 years too late and will not prove attractive to landlords if linked to long term leases. Why they cannot cut to 25% and introduce 25% tax on large foreign investors (who pay no tax) is utterly beyond me.
 
I think it would be impossible to have different rates of income tax on different types of income??

Too much chance of abuse??
 
it's just crazy that one group who are landlords pay 50% plus in tax while another group who are landlords pay nothing. How is that fair? Imagine charging teachers 50% tax and charging Gardai no tax? Would people stand for that?

The exodus of landlords is going to continue and only accelerate further. I see this Budget as a final chance for the Government to stem the exodus either through a reduction in the taxation charged to small landlords or else doing something about RPZ in existence for the last 6 years. Landlords selling up are being vilified with headlines of 10% increases in rent each year when a huge number of them are stuck with rentals upto 40% below market price. Someone with a new rental charges the highest rent possible, say €2,000 a month, while the small landlord with one property the last 15 years, still has it rented out at say €1300 a month and can only increase it €26 a year.

They are taxed to the hilt by Government, vilified by the media and the Opposition threaten them with giving the tenant a lifetime right to remain in the house should they get into power in January 2025. Add in, interest raises rising dramatically, meaning the cost of repaying the mortgage is increasing very significantly and yet the rent cannot be increased by more than 2% and also, if the tenant decides to stop paying rent, it'll cost you thousands to evict them, the bones of two years to do so, and if the tenant trashes the house on leaving, then you have absolutely no recourse or compensation to repair the house.

And people believe the narrative that landlords are on the gravy train and wonder why on earth they are selling up and getting out. 12 months down the road, things are going to be a hell of a lot worse for renters in Ireland.
 
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It's terrible that private landlords are paying tax rates in line with the general population and are getting out when property prices have moved ahead of even Celtic Tiger levels. What WILL they do with their accumulated wealth?!?
 
Who are the landlords that don't pay tax?

Please be very specific in any answer.

Tax is paid on rents earned by REITs, as they must distribute rental profits to shareholders.
I think you're right.

If I'm not wrong 85% of REIT income must be distributed to shareholders. Then the shareholder taxed at their marginal rate.

I guess REITs are better able to make use of debt. But as far as I can tell the tax treatment is no more favourable than for amateur landlords.
 
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Landlords selling up are being vilified with headlines of 10% increases in rent each year when a huge number of them are stuck with rentals upto 40% below market price. Someone with a new rental charges the highest rent possible, say €2,000 a month, while the small landlord with one property the last 15 years, still has it rented out at say €1300 a month and can only increase it €26 a year.
I find this particular interesting. The RPZ's were being put in place to put a lid on the 'market rent' increases that were way ahead of salary increases, or inflation rates.

Couple points I guess: First, how did rents increase as much as they did, despite RPZ's in place? For me it reads like the legislation was by and large 'worked around'. There are a few threads even in this forum where ideas are being discussed on how to 'work around' the RPZ limits.
So the spirit of the legislation is clearly not working. Maybe we should lobby to link rent increases with CPI instead, as it is done in some other countries.

Second point: what exactly is the 'small landlord' complaining about? That less profit is being made compared to the neighbour that worked around rent increase limits? Quite a few complaints here are regarding the requirement to pay tax on rental income. So clearly, even 'small landlords' are still making a profit. What some of the 'small landlords' seem to have forgotten is that being a landlord is a business, and might even require putting in some hours, deal with tenants, etc. Some landlords even decide to not rent it out at all (anymore), so clearly don't want/need the money. If you don't like to work for it, sell the place.

I find the notion of 'I demand that I can increase the rent from €1300 to €2000 because!' rather irritating, to be honest.

And yes, I am aware that it isn't black and white.
 
I find this particular interesting. The RPZ's were being put in place to put a lid on the 'market rent' increases that were way ahead of salary increases, or inflation rates.

Couple points I guess: First, how did rents increase as much as they did, despite RPZ's in place? For me it reads like the legislation was by and large 'worked around'. There are a few threads even in this forum where ideas are being discussed on how to 'work around' the RPZ limits.
So the spirit of the legislation is clearly not working. Maybe we should lobby to link rent increases with CPI instead, as it is done in some other countries.

Second point: what exactly is the 'small landlord' complaining about? That less profit is being made compared to the neighbour that worked around rent increase limits? Quite a few complaints here are regarding the requirement to pay tax on rental income. So clearly, even 'small landlords' are still making a profit. What some of the 'small landlords' seem to have forgotten is that being a landlord is a business, and might even require putting in some hours, deal with tenants, etc. Some landlords even decide to not rent it out at all (anymore), so clearly don't want/need the money. If you don't like to work for it, sell the place.

I find the notion of 'I demand that I can increase the rent from €1300 to €2000 because!' rather irritating, to be honest.

And yes, I am aware that it isn't black and white.
With new rentals entering the market at higher rents then the average increases.

What the general public seem to forget is that no business is forced to continue providing a service and not get paid. Ever try to evict a non paying tenant?

Also a business is all about maximising profit. The market dictates price. The State nor tenants can't pick and choose those parts of the market that suits them and ignore those that don't.

If Tuesdays offering to landlords is a tax break if they agree to extended leases I don't think this will be enough to have a significant reduction in landlords leaving the market.

Maybe a tax break without any preconditions may keep some landlords planning to leave in the market.
 
It doesn't suit the government narrative to not vilify landlords or encourage them to remain in the market without strings attached. SF will give out that they are siding with wealthy landlords. SF won't have to worry about landlords by the time they get into power, thousands upon thousands of them will be gone by early 2025 anyway.

RPZ zones were temporary (a bit like the USC). What the RPZ zones do is protect existing tenants but crucify new tenants. Any new property for rental (and there aren't many) have the rent set to the maximum. Advertised for €2500 a month, if you get it, brilliant, if not, drop it to €2400 etc. Someone will take it eventually (or very very quickly given the market at the moment).

Existing landlords, who didn't raise rents for years due to having a good tenant, are left with charging the same tenant a fraction of same rent. I know landlords who haven't any interest in charging the maximum rent, I know I don't want to do so. But we are faced with rent 40% lower than our next door neighbour because they are new to the rental game whereas I'm not. I genuinely don't agree with that. If people actually believe that this isn't driving landlords out of the market, you are naive.

If people don't think landlords are leaving because SF are saying that if they are in power after the next general election, that landlords will have to sell a property wiht the tenant in situ, you are naive. That's like saying, you can sell your property in the next 2 years to absolutely anyway or after that, you can only sell to someone who is a cash buyer (banks won't lend unless there's vacant possession) and who wants to be a landlord. What percentage of the market of house buyers is that.........1% or less???? Talk about annihilating the value of your asset in two years time.

What the situation is becoming is that only rentals will be managed by huge REITS and charging the maximum rent possible. Anyone charging 'below market' rent will be encouraged to leave (and re-enter the market if they want). I could sell my house for 300k and buy another house in the estate that wasn't a rental and go from charging €1300 a month to €2000 a month. The only winners are the government (stamp duty and increased income tax on rental income), solicitors and estate agents. The landlords will benefit when the cost of selling and re-buying are covered (probably 2-3 years) and the tenant gets absolutely screwed with rent increasing over 50%. How is that a system that works.

For me, I would suggest this, if market rent in an area is €2000 a month, for a landlord, any landlord who charges 25% lower than the market rent, their income tax payable on rental income be capped at 25%. In this instance, instead of a tenant paying €24,000 a year in rent, they are paying €18,000. They win. The landlord, assuming no expenses whatsoever (unlikely but for the sake of calculations) would receive €18,000 in rent instead of €24,000 but they would pay tax @ 25% on €18,000 leaving them with €13,500 nett as opposed to 52% on €24,000 leaving them with €11,520. The government instead of receiving €12,000 in income tax would only receive €4,500. You can see why the government don't want to do this, but will instead make some stupid proposal on Tuesday to reduce tax if landlords sign up for 10 year leases or else increase the tax write off on pre-letting expenses (which is so immaterial to the vast majority of landlords that it's totally pointless).

Instead of a tax credit for renters, "putting a months renter back in renters pockets" as SF like to shout about, the above would put 3.33 months rent back in renters pockets. Plus, the benefit for renters is three times greater than it is for landlords.

I would like a minister or official to say what they think the rental market in Ireland is going to look like in 3-5 years time. There aren't any small landlords coming in and renting a house for €1200 or €1400 a month. Its REITS charging €2,500 plus for 2 bed apartments and leaving the things idle and being able to afford to do so until someone is willing to pay it.
 
I think it would be impossible to have different rates of income tax on different types of income??

Too much chance of abuse??
It isn't really. Previously, rental income was capped at 40% and not liable for PRSI and USC. The government changed this overnight and meant the tax paid by landlords increased from 40% to 51 or 52%. As a result, rents needed to increase by approximately 22-24% for the landlords to be left in the same net position as before. Tenants lost out, taxman gained big time and no difference for landlords.
 
It's terrible that private landlords are paying tax rates in line with the general population and are getting out when property prices have moved ahead of even Celtic Tiger levels. What WILL they do with their accumulated wealth?!?
they will sell up because of regulatory, over taxation, threats of SF taking power and restricting who they can sell their asset to.

Taxation is one issue, RPZ are another. There's no consistency. If I'm a commercial landlord and I rent my property to a cafe and that cafe sells a coffee for €3.00. They closed down and I rent out the property to another cafe. That cafe isn't restricted to charge €3.00 for the coffee, they can charge what they like. With a domestic property, you are restricted and if you sell to another landlord, they too are restricted. And they are restricted indefinitely until they leave the property idle for 2 years. What a ludicrous situation and environment to develop.
 
It's terrible that private landlords are paying tax rates in line with the general population and are getting out when property prices have moved ahead of even Celtic Tiger levels. What WILL they do with their accumulated wealth?!?
I would love to hear your thoughts on the future of the rental sector in ireland? Have you hear there's a crisis this year for third level students unable to find accommodation? How do you think this will be resolved? Are you of hte SF persuasion that w just need to build 20,000 social houses a year for the next ten years and that'll solve it all?

Now, to find the thousands of builders, blocklayers, painters, plumbers, electricians, plasterers, architects, engineers etc who are currently not employed who will build these 20,000 houses a year...........I saw them around here somewhere!!!!
 
Who are the landlords that don't pay tax?

Please be very specific in any answer.

Tax is paid on rents earned by REITs, as they must distribute rental profits to shareholders.
REITs are companies who earn rental income from commercial or residential property. They are generally exempt from Corporation Tax (CT) on income from their property rental business only. Also they are generally exempt from chargeable gains made on the disposal of assets of their property rental business only.


Dividends paid by REITS to non-residents are not liable to tax here in Ireland. And its common for the REITS to be foreign owned. Kennedy Wilson, DWS, LRC Europe, Patrizia, Orange Capital Partners and Greystar. The six of them REITS are foreign owned (i.e. no tax whatsoever paid in Ireland) and they rent out approximately 8,000 properties. And they are the REITS off the top of my head!

You have Irelands biggest land IRES REIT, they have over 4,000 properties and any foreign shareholders of theirs (and there's a lot) they pay no tax in Ireland either.
 
I think you're right.

If I'm not wrong 85% of REIT income must be distributed to shareholders (on which 12.5% corporation tax is due). Then the shareholder taxed at their marginal rate.

I guess REITs are better able to make use of debt. But as far as I can tell the tax treatment is no more favourable than for amateur landlords.
shareholders are only taxed at their marginal rate if resident in Ireland. A lot of REITS and share in REITS are owned by foreign investors, hence, they pay nothing. Also, see my posting about about Corporate Tax as per the Revenue website.
 
I find this particular interesting. The RPZ's were being put in place to put a lid on the 'market rent' increases that were way ahead of salary increases, or inflation rates.

Couple points I guess: First, how did rents increase as much as they did, despite RPZ's in place? For me it reads like the legislation was by and large 'worked around'. There are a few threads even in this forum where ideas are being discussed on how to 'work around' the RPZ limits.
So the spirit of the legislation is clearly not working. Maybe we should lobby to link rent increases with CPI instead, as it is done in some other countries.
Rents increased by 10 or 15% last year because the calculation is based on rentals registered with the Residential Tenancy Board (RTB). So you have existing rentals increasing by a maximum of 2% per annum, combined with a load of tenancies ending and the property being sold and new properties coming into the system as new rentals.

The issue or problem is, it's invariably cheaper rentals leaving the sector (because of high prices maybe, or RPZ restrictions maybe, or something else maybe!) and being replaced (to a very small extent) by new properties charging the absolute maximum rent possible (as in REITS charging €2,500 for a 2 bed apartment in Dublin, compared to some small landlord selling a 2 bed apartment in Dublin because they were limited to rent of €1300 a month and restricted to increasing it by €26 a year for the next 10-20 years. That's why rents are increasing. OR at lesat the headline figure of rent. If you had a property to rent out tomorrow, wouldn't you try and get the very maximum rent for it because once you rent it out, you are forever limited to 2% annual increases thereafter?!!!
 
I find this particular interesting. The RPZ's were being put in place to put a lid on the 'market rent' increases that were way ahead of salary increases, or inflation rates.

Couple points I guess: First, how did rents increase as much as they did, despite RPZ's in place? For me it reads like the legislation was by and large 'worked around'. There are a few threads even in this forum where ideas are being discussed on how to 'work around' the RPZ limits.
So the spirit of the legislation is clearly not working. Maybe we should lobby to link rent increases with CPI instead, as it is done in some other countries.
The issue is existing tenancies are 'stuck' charging way below market rent indefinitely. If CPI is increasing 10% per annum, your costs are increasing 10% are well. So you are in the same position as before re way below the rent you could be charging. And I'll reiterate, no interest in charging maximum rent, but a fairer rent for the property is what landlords should be entitled to do. Not required/forced to subsidise housing costs of others. Hence why they are now leaving in droves. Eviction notices up 100% from last year and going to get even worse again in the next 12 months.

At the moment, inflation and costs are 8% higher, yet price increases are limited to a maximum of 2%. No such restrictions for basics like bread, milk, butter, electricity, gas, petrol etc. Why is housing the exception? And by consequence, why is housing in an absolute mess.
 
Second point: what exactly is the 'small landlord' complaining about? That less profit is being made compared to the neighbour that worked around rent increase limits? Quite a few complaints here are regarding the requirement to pay tax on rental income. So clearly, even 'small landlords' are still making a profit. What some of the 'small landlords' seem to have forgotten is that being a landlord is a business, and might even require putting in some hours, deal with tenants, etc. Some landlords even decide to not rent it out at all (anymore), so clearly don't want/need the money. If you don't like to work for it, sell the place.

I find the notion of 'I demand that I can increase the rent from €1300 to €2000 because!' rather irritating, to be honest.

And yes, I am aware that it isn't black and white.
Landlords are complaining about:

inflation at 8% yet ability to increase rents by 2%.
being permantently restricted to charge upto 50% lower than market rent irrespective of changing tenants or a tenancy ending
inequality of taxation treatment for all landlords
inability to evict a tenant who refuses to pay for upto 2 years
inability to pursue a tenant who vandalises and destroys a property and walks away without penalty

neither I, nor other landlords I know want to charge market rent. I have outlined above in post number 71 a solution that would benefit renters three times as much as it would benefit landlords. It suits the narrative for the government, to have the blame apportioned on landlords, when in fact, the biggest winners from any rental are the government or the taxman themselves.
 
shareholders are only taxed at their marginal rate if resident in Ireland. A lot of REITS and share in REITS are owned by foreign investors, hence, they pay nothing. Also, see my posting about about Corporate Tax as per the Revenue website.
Rental profits by non-resident private landlords are only taxed at 20% though.

Depending on residence of REIT shareholder they will of course pay tax on the REIT income.

The CGT exemption makes sense as the shareholder will be taxed anyway on the capital gain in the share price which should broadly track capital gains of the REIT's holdings.
 
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