Any rumours will they tax landlords less than current full tax rate?

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Bluefin said:
There's been very good arguments been put forward by many members on this site in relation to how other assets (equities) should be treated from a tax perspective (dividends and potential gains).... Why should rentals be treated any different from equities? As far as I can see no landlord is in it for altruistic reasons! They are in for pure profit with the tenant paying their mortgage while the landlord pockets the gains...
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That really has been the attitude over the past number of years and the exact reason why small landlords are running like greyhounds.
Plus the fact you can have decent tenants for years and some cowboy decides not to pay the rent and stays on a freebie for the best part of 2 years. Not alone will you loose two years income. The property most likely will be left in rag order. Also your previous good tenants paying rent in full and on time counts for nothing when you average out rental income over several tear time frame.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
I agree. The TSG paper makes clear that most potential policy changes wouldn't be material to most landlords. LPT deductibility, CGT exemptions, being able to offset rental losses against non-rental income, etc, aren't going to move the needle much.

The TSG paper takes the view that rental profits are income like any other. And that a separate tax regime for rental income would be a major structural change that can't be justified.

I think that there will be changes for landlords in the Budget, but mainly cosmetic.
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Hilarious that they say this and stand over rental income charged effectively at 40% in a company plus 55% when you take it out whereas trading income is 12.5% and 55% when taken out. Some other income must be more other income than others.
 
I'm in no way anti landlord.. I've rented from the age of 17 to 38 with only 2 bad experiences in that time which where both resolved without the need of external intervention..

A rental property is an asset first and foremost and should be treated no different to any other assets from a tax perspective.

If the contention that work should be taxed less than capital taxes, then any income generated from rents or gains made from selling houses should not be treated any different to dividend income or gains made from equities. Likewise if CAT/CGT /Inheritance tax is to increased as being argued on this site, rent and gains from property should be taxed at the same level of these taxes.

I can't understand how FG(M Noonan) introduced such favourable tax incentives for reits... Both should be treated equally.

I think Brendans and Purples desire to advocate for the younger generations to develop a type of system to allow them to get some sort of foot on the property ladder is admirable and I hope it succeeds.
 
Disturbing that the government seems to be giving in to blackmail by the landlord lobby. Rentier income should not attract lower taxes than income generated from working and contributing to society.
 
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tomdublin said:
Disturbing that the government seems to be giving in to blackmail by the landlord lobby. Rentier income should not attract lower taxes than income generated from working and contributing to society.
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Like comparing apples and oranges. If been a private landlord was so lucrative why are so many including myself leaving the pitch?
The risks/rewards been a private landlord are discussed in many many posts on AAM.
The simple fact is small landlords and I am a landlord since 2002 find the risks associated in todays world are just not worth it.
The figures involved do not stack up coupled with the other real risks have and will continue to see landlords exit.
Go onto Daft and look for rentals in Dublin. First rentals to appear wiill be commercial landlords with multiple listings owned by foreign funds paying a fraction of the tax of small landlords and most probably moving profits outside the country.
Tax on a rental is around 50%. If this was even reduced by a significant amount say 10% I still would not consider staying in the market. Variables such as bad tenants the Prtb and the government blowing with the wind are whats chasing small landlords from the pitch.
 
KOW said:
foreign funds paying a fraction of the tax of small landlords
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Agreed, investment funds should pay taxes. I also agree that it should be easier for landlords to get rid of antisocial tenants. Beyond that, measures such as a complete prohibition of short-term rentals and heavy tax punishments for empty properties should help incentivise landlords to stay in business. Taxing income not derived from work less than income from employment simply isn't fair. In effect it amounts to people who don't own property subsiding those who do.
 
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tomdublin said:
Agreed, investment funds should pay taxes. I also agree that it should be easier for landlords to get rid of antisocial tenants. Beyond that, measures such as a complete prohibition of short-term rentals and heavy tax punishments for empty properties should help incentivise landlords to stay in business. Taxing income not derived from work less than income from employment simply isn't fair. In effect it amounts to people who don't own property subsiding those who do.
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that perspective re equal taxation of income is a bit naive. It’s more complex than that. The government does not meddle in the labour market to the same degree. For example, there are no restrictions on the maximum wage or pay increase your employer can give you…..even if your colleagues doing the same job are paid twice as much. Employers can fire employees who take the p*ss a lot more easily than a landlord can remove a tenant who has decided to camp out in your property for free. An employee can reduce his income tax by paying AVCs and other deductions. A rental property is not taxed in a way which is consistent with the taxation of other businesses. The result of the government meddling, and shifting the balance of rights (with risk of a lot worse to come) has resulted in landlords making the right financial decision to exit now. Simple as that. Either the balance of rights and meddling gets rolled back, or taxation policy shifts to counteract and incentivise a few more landlords to remain in the market. That’s the story - full stop!
 
If allowing property tax as an expense is all the government give landlords in the budget, the exodus including myself will continue.

There needs to be a significant reduction in tax on rental income for me to remain. And there needs to be a mapped out plan of steps in years to come to make it financially viable for small landlords to remain in the game.
 
PebbleBeach2020 said:
If allowing property tax as an expense is all the government give landlords in the budget, the exodus including myself will continue.

There needs to be a significant reduction in tax on rental income for me to remain. And there needs to be a mapped out plan of steps in years to come to make it financially viable for small landlords to remain in the game.
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There's not a hope in hell of that happening. To do so would be to admit to a massive policy failure that the State and political class wholly and unnecessarily created.
 
I think a basic point about private landlords is not understood by policy makers and many of the commentators on the housing market. No one is obliged to provide you with a commercial service. Just like local shopkeeper, hairdresser or mechanic, your local landlord is not obliged to provide you with a service. If you make it unprofitable or unattractive in other ways for them to provide the service, they will stop providing the service. Simple.
 
The Govt need to bite the bullet on this issue and the only way they can do this (and save face) is to give something of equal benefit to the renters.

By trying to control a market (which is exactly what private rental is) the Govt have made the mess we are in.

Look at the taxi industry as a case in point. Deregulation destroyed the industry. Fixed charges, obsolescence of vehicles after 9 yrs irrespective of condition and inability to attract new drivers.

If the Govt continues on its current trajectory in the property sector without encouraging new entrants I expect an even further deterioration in the market going forward.
 
Mocame said:
I think a basic point about private landlords is not understood by policy makers and many of the commentators on the housing market. No one is obliged to provide you with a commercial service. Just like local shopkeeper, hairdresser or mechanic, your local landlord is not obliged to provide you with a service. If you make it unprofitable or unattractive in other ways for them to provide the service, they will stop providing the service. Simple.
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Exactly. Which is what's happening now. And will continue to happen.
 
T McGibney said:
There's not a hope in hell of that happening. To do so would be to admit to a massive policy failure that the State and political class wholly and unnecessarily created.
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Better to do nothing so is it? And stick their head in the ground. And hope things change if their own accord.

What about extending the rent a room limit of €14000 tax free to landlords. If a landlord reduces rent to a little under €1200 a month, it's tax free.

I would reduce my rent immediately and benefit the tenants hugely. If they are realistic about reducing rents, something like this needs to happened.

It would be targeted solely to benefit "mom and pop" landlords too. And renters would benefit hugely too. It would also give certainty and might attract new small landlords into the game.

A €300,000 house renter for €14,000 a year would give a investor a nett return after tax (i.e. no tax) of 4.67%, which I would consider to be very attractive.
 
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PebbleBeach2020 said:
Better to do nothing so is it? And stick their head in the ground. And hope things change if their own accord.

What about extending the rent a room limit of €14000 tax free to landlords. If a landlord reduces rent to a little under k €1200 a month, it's tax free.

I would reduce my rent immediately and benefit the tenants hugely. If they are realistic about reducing rents, something like this need to happened.

It would be targeted solely to benefit moms and pop landlords too. And renters would benefit hugely too. It would also give certainty and might attract new small landlords into the game. A €300,000 house renter for €14,000 a year would give a investor a nett return after tax (i.e. no tax) of 4.67% which I would consider very attractive.
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Many of the existing landlords got stung with the rpz and many are already under the 14k so bringing the rent a room scheme for landlords may not make any difference.

Get rid of the indefinite tenancies. That was the nail in the coffin for many landlords.

Stop kite flying comments that landlord may be forced to sell with sitting tenants.

I read the report and there was a survey sent to ONLY 50 landlords. They asked why they left and mostly the comments was they did not want to be a landlord anymore. I wonder did anyone here get asked to complete the survey and what was the multiple choice questions?
The Government are tinkering to much and making the situation worse.

One idea they gave on the report was rent for 5/7 years with a tenant in place and you can reduce your cgt by 4% per year. Too much if a risk. what happens when the 5/7 years are up? Tenant still here any may have nowhere to go. Property values go up and down and we do not know what will happen in the next few years.
This would not stop us selling.
 
We tax business profits and income differently. Just about every country does. The tax that commercial landlords pay on their rent is different from the tax private (non corporate) landlords pay on their income. That’s because the tax any commercial concern pays is different to private income.
It’s certain the case that the reits should be taxed the same way as any other business but there is still a fundamental difference between them and private landlords.
PebbleBeach2020 said:
What about extending the rent a room limit of €14000 tax free to landlords
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I like that idea. It doesn’t fundamentally change the tax system but it does effectively put a ceiling on most rents. I would be interested to see what it would cost the State in taxes foregone, when the net cost of HAPS in deducted.
 
Surely letting a property for rent is a business? So why isn't it taxed in the same as all other businesses? If I am a self employed sweet shop owner I can deduct a lot more business expenses from my business income before it liable for tax than landlord can. Why is this the case?
 
Mocame said:
Surely letting a property for rent is a business? So why isn't it taxed in the same as all other businesses? If I am a self employed sweet shop owner I can deduct a lot more business expenses from my business income before it liable for tax than landlord can. Why is this the case?
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I agree. The same deductibles should be allowed. Income tax should not be charged on anything that can reasonably described as turnover.
 
I’ve been a homeowner, a landlord and a tenant all at the same time so I have a broad perspective on this subject, though I certainly don’t have expertise in any particular relevant area.
 
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