10,000 people earn more than 500K

[Zenith63]

I've always been a big believer in decentralisation, but I'm starting to wonder if it is really realistic for a country with our sized budget to have 3-4 main cities with sufficient infrastructure to meet the expectations of the types of companies we are trying to encourage in Ireland as the last English speaking tech hub in Europe (FB, Google etc.)? Dublin needs some very serious investment in public transport if it is to continue growing as it has been, far more aggressive and ambitious than what is included in Ireland 2040. Perhaps there is an argument to ploughing money into Dublin to allow it take the next phase of growth, and hopefully hit a point of critical mass where subway systems etc. start to make sense?

Out of interest, comparing the sizes of the top four UK cities by population 1:0.14:0.10:0.09 to Ireland's top four 1:0.18:0.08:0.07, there isn't that much difference in how much bigger London is to the next three than Dublin is to our next three. The difference of course is the 1m people living in Dublin vs. 7m living in London, and I wonder how feasible it is to have a well infrastructured modern city with only 1-2m people in it.

I'm obviously not suggesting these other cities should be neglected by any means, but just wondering if there is a risk of spreading public finances too thin and not ending up with even one city that can perform on the international stage...

 

[Purple]

On the average industrial wage, Gerry Adams is able to maintain three properties (Belfast, Louth and Donegal, I believe). He should be the next Minister for Finance the way he's able to handle his own finances!

It's more than P. Flynn could do, that's for sure!

 

[Swyper]

I've always been a big believer in decentralisation, but I'm starting to wonder if it is really realistic for a country with our sized budget to have 3-4 main cities with sufficient infrastructure to meet the expectations of the types of companies we are trying to encourage in Ireland as the last English speaking tech hub in Europe (FB, Google etc.)? Dublin needs some very serious investment in public transport if it is to continue growing as it has been, far more aggressive and ambitious than what is included in Ireland 2040. Perhaps there is an argument to ploughing money into Dublin to allow it take the next phase of growth, and hopefully hit a point of critical mass where subway systems etc. start to make sense?

Out of interest, comparing the sizes of the top four UK cities by population 1:0.14:0.10:0.09 to Ireland's top four 1:0.18:0.08:0.07, there isn't that much difference in how much bigger London is to the next three than Dublin is to our next three. The difference of course is the 1m people living in Dublin vs. 7m living in London, and I wonder how feasible it is to have a well infrastructured modern city with only 1-2m people in it.

I'm obviously not suggesting these other cities should be neglected by any means, but just wondering if there is a risk of spreading public finances too thin and not ending up with even one city that can perform on the international stage...

Why would we consider the UK to be a healthy example to emulate?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessrevi...but-that-other-large-uk-cities-are-too-small/

It's obvious that we shouldn't try to have a Dublin competitor in every county, but that doesn't mean that it is healthy to have a giant bowling ball at the edge of a country sucking population and resources in.

Looking at other countries:
NZ:
-- Auckland: 1.5m
-- Wellington: 0.5m
-- Christchurch: 0.36

Sweden:
-- Stockholm: 1.5m
-- Gothenburg: 0.58m
-- Malmo: 0.3m

Italy:
-- Rome: 2.3m
-- Milan: 1.2m
-- Naples: 0.96m

And a few outliers:

Scotland:
-- Glasgow: 0.6m
-- Edinburgh: 0.47m
-- Aberdeen: 0.2m

What it would seem to me is that it would be healthy for Ireland in general, and Dublin in particular to have a second city that firstly has a critical mass to sustain continued development, and is 1/3 or 1/2 of the population of Dublin.

The problem other Irish cities have had in the past has been lack of critical mass (Cork being the only one close, and hopefully starting to get its act together on that), or just being too close to the gravitational pull of Dublin.

 

[galway_blow_in]

I can't see them ever getting in, they are far too left leaning. Ireland is too conservative a country.

A mate of mine is a SF supporter and bets in every election that they will get over X amount of seats. He loses his money every time. When it comes to voting for them, people stay away as they don't want to be taxed to high heaven...it's bad enough as it is!!!

Ireland has always been quite left wing economically.

We love Big government.

 

[galway_blow_in]

While I'm no supporter of SF, it is reasonable to point out that income inequality is wide in Ireland.

Pre taxes and transfers, it is wide.

Now, this is partly due to too many people not being in employment.

But it's also due to cartels/excessive fees/charges in legal/medical/property sectors.

The sheltered sectors need bringing into the real economy.

If it didn't happen under the 2010 to 2013 IMF period, what chance now. ?

 

[Zenith63]

Why would we consider the UK to be a healthy example to emulate?

Definitely a fair point! I was using it more to challenge the narrative that the size differences between the cities is way outside the international norm, but I completely agree that we should be aspiring towards some of those countries with better standards of living.

However the main argument I was trying to make is that Ireland is positioning itself as a global technology and financial hub, the only English-speaking stepping stone to the EU market etc. Rightly or wrongly, this kind of thing tends to coalesce around large international class cities and with a population of less than 5m, it is not realistic for Ireland to have more than one of these in the time-frame it needs to happen in. Dublin is already creaking, not because there are too many people in the city, but because there isn't sufficient investment in public services. As examples, the housing crisis would not exist if the city had an underground with 10 minute commutes from Swords, Lucan, Leixlip and traffic problems would also come down to bearable levels. A country of our size does not have the public finances to fix this quickly in 2-3 cities at once, it's questionable if it can be achieved in one.

If I was not into the vision of the country as this international financial/technology hub, a position I can totally appreciate, I would certainly be more in favour of complete decentralisation, multiple smaller cities and all the quality of life benefits that would come with that. But personally I think we can have the best of both worlds by bringing wealth into the country as a tech/financial hub in Dublin, while encouraging the other cities to grow more moderately and being nice places to live for those that don't necessarily want Google and State Street on their doorstep.

 

[cremeegg]

Alternatively, if the issue of high earners is paying too much tax then they could take pay cuts? That would reduce their tax contribution, the money could be used to increase wages at the lower end (bringing them into the tax net) and income inequality is reduced.
So all at once, high earners, low earners, average earners , Gekko and SF can all be happy together.
Group hug

As a higher rate taxpayer, though hardly a high earner, I have taken your advice. After considering some work recently which I was offered at €10k, I reconsidered when I realised that my take home from that would be less than €5k.

So that is €5k less tax I will pay this year.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

If Sinn Fein/IRA ever get into power and implement their crackpot economic policies, they’ll get a shock when people stop doing that extra job or piece of work and when high net worth individuals leave the country. It’s a point that the powers that be up in Belfast don’t seem to get.

 

[RETIRED2017]

If Sinn Fein/IRA ever get into power and implement their crackpot economic policies, they’ll get a shock when people stop doing that extra job or piece of work and when high net worth individuals leave the country. It’s a point that the powers that be up in Belfast don’t seem to get.

The Problem and I suspect you already know the people in power have already implemented the crackpot economic policies you fear just people who are still benifiting from these policies shortterm do not want to know ,

 

[Sophrosyne]

I've always been a big believer in decentralisation, but I'm starting to wonder if it is really realistic for a country with our sized budget to have 3-4 main cities with sufficient infrastructure to meet the expectations of the types of companies we are trying to encourage in Ireland as the last English speaking tech hub in Europe (FB, Google etc.)?

This is certainly a dilemma for Government. It is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t.

Should we build our infrastructure around capricious multi-nationals, or invest more in indigenous businesses around the country?

Is there an over-reliance on the multi-national IT and Pharmaceutical industries, similar to past over-reliance on the construction industry.

In the larger scheme of things, is the fact that we speak English a major consideration for multi-nationals? Ireland is not the most multi-lingual country but English is widely spoken throughout the EU as a second language.

 

[Zenith63]

Should we build our infrastructure around capricious multi-nationals, or invest more in indigenous businesses around the country?
Is there an over-reliance on the multi-national IT and Pharmaceutical industries, similar to past over-reliance on the construction industry.
In the larger scheme of things, is the fact that we speak English a major consideration for multi-nationals? Ireland is not the most multi-lingual country but English is widely spoken throughout the EU as a second language.

I don't know if "capricious" is an accurate representation at all. There have been a small number of high-profile MNC departures over the years, Dell being an obvious example, but the likes of Apple have been here a long time, Google/Facebook/Amazon/et al have been here a fair while and have shown few signs of faltering.

The tech/pharmas have played a significant role in minimising the impact of and shortening the recession in Ireland. So while both they and the construction industry may have at one point been a large part of the countries tax take, that's about where the similarities end.

Regarding the language piece, I probably should have said "native" English speakers because there is a distinction there. It is fairly common practice for large call-centres to seek native English speakers, though paradoxically often to deal with calls from non-native English speaking callers so ease the exchange. It may not be a major factor, but it matters.


So my personal view is that yes, we should continue to build our infrastructure to encourage more of these business to come here and those that are here to stay, based on their long-standing and consistent positive impact on our economy, society and livelihoods.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree with what you say but I am looking at the consequences of our reliance on multi-nationals.

Because of their presence, it has got to the stage that GDP is no longer a reliable measure of our economic performance. It could be said that multi-nationals mask the true state of our economy.

I just feel that there needs to be a better balance between the interests of multi-nationals and the interest of the more diverse indigenous industries, which is still mostly at micro level in terms of job creation.

 

[Zenith63]

It's estimated that 13% of employees in Ireland are employed by Foreign Direct Investment companies. Is 13% really tipping the balance?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

I love how some people moan about our overreliance on multinationals; what’s the solution, turf them out? Or try to turn the Ballyhaunis Bazaar into the next Amazon?

In reality, the solution is probably to syphon a decent chunk of the associated tax revenue into the “rainy day fund” and to avoid letting expenditure run out of control on foot of the enhanced tax revenues.

 

[odyssey06]

It's estimated that 13% of employees in Ireland are employed by Foreign Direct Investment companies. Is 13% really tipping the balance?

That's directly employed. How many more are indirectly employed? Plus they are probably among the best paid private sector employees. If you exclude state and semi-state employees and 'protected' sectors like legal, medical, banking given the lack of large scale domestic companies, FDI is what wins the ball for everyone else to play with.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

And it may be only 13%, but my guess is that their % of the total remuneration pie is far higher, given that they tend to be well paid.

In the context of the 9% VAT rate etc, just think about this stat: Google take 45,000 hotel room nights in Dublin each year.

 

[Sophrosyne]

what’s the solution, turf them out? Or try to turn the Ballyhaunis Bazaar into the next Amazon?

Who has suggested this?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Who has suggested this?

Where exactly did I indicate that someone had suggested it?

 

[Zenith63]

That's directly employed. How many more are indirectly employed

Somewhere between 20 and 25% including direct and indirect apparently.

 

[Sophrosyne]

It's estimated that 13% of employees in Ireland are employed by Foreign Direct Investment companies. Is 13% really tipping the balance?

But these are estimated employment figures, I referred to GDP.

This quote from the IMF document Ireland : 2018 Article IV Consultation-Press Release; Staff Report; and Statement by the Executive Director for Ireland may help to explain the position:

“Several features of the Irish economy make it difficult to assess its cyclical position. Ireland is a small open economy whose growth model has hinged upon attracting FDI from MNEs, becoming a hub of their European and worldwide operations. The flip-side is that Ireland’s headline GDP figures no longer provide a good measure of the economic activity that physically takes place in the national territory, as a significant share of the MNE activity carried out in other countries is recorded in Ireland’s national accounts in addition, a flexible labor market together with responsive migration flows contribute to making Ireland’s characteristics very similar to those of a regional economy.”