It’s not their religion people have a concern about. It’s the way they treat immigrant workers. Badly verging on slavery.They are sovereign states with their own religious ideology.
You're right, what was I thinking. There's absolutely nothing wrong with executing people for being homosexual, or being able to beat your wife or being able to effectively sell your daughter. Women who are raped should be stoned as adulterers and a woman's word should only carry half the weight of a mans in court. It's perfectly okay to frame the laws of a country based on the most barbaric interpretation of a religion and oppress all those who hold different views.This is ‘wokeness’ gone mad.
Yes, because the bad guys were white and the good guys were black. That's all that was needed and sure before the sanctions it was perfectly fine to trade with them and work there as part of the Apartheid system.Apartheid South Africa was an international pariah and the country had sanctions opposed against it.
Yes, the people doing the oppressing are not white. That makes it completely different. The fact that the oppression is worse doesn't matter.Countries in the Middle East such as the UAE or Qatar are completely different.
Yes, because they are exactly like a free Western society other than their treatment of Trans people. They have no issue with minority religions, gay people, women or those in favour of free speech of freedom of expression.They are respected members of the international community and trading partners of ours. They have not been sanctioned. They are sovereign states with their own religious ideology. Just because it doesn’t rhyme with the woke trans nonsense etc that we’re all being hit with, some people want to brand them as some sort of rogue states.
So you're incapable of making an informed moral judgement?If countries such as ours blacklist them or introduce sanctions against them, I’ll change my view, but until then if people want to work or holiday in such places, more power to them.
Signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.They have their own religion, their own customs, and who are we to criticise them?
Did you move here from somewhere else due to our liberal laws on human rights?I prefer our own approach to issues such as homosexuality. That’s why I choose to live in Ireland.
They’re not sentenced to death, that’s hyperbole.Did you move here from somewhere else due to our liberal laws on human rights?
Is that the advice you'd give to a 14 year old gay person living in Qatar or Saudi Arabia where the punishment for being who they are ranges from flogging and prison to death?
How about women and those in minority religions?
Should they leave too?
Should they all move here or to any country they like?
They’re not sentenced to death, that’s hyperbole.
So what?They’re a sovereign nation with no sanctions against them.
I think that when it comes to social mores, yes.It's usually just flogging and prison but they do execute people and have done do on a reasonable frequent basis so no, it's not hyperbole, it's the uncomfortable truth. Even at it's worst South Africa didn't have laws that specifically allowed for people to be treated that badly.
If people want to participate in and enable that sort of a society and that sort of barbarism then they are, at best, no better than the people who worked in Apartheid era South Africa.
So what?
Is it okay in your view for a sovereign nation to do anything it wants to it's own inhabitants?
Is flogging or executing someone for being gay or denying women many of their basic human rights just social mores?I think that when it comes to social mores, yes.
Fair enough. I don't. Did you respect South Africa's right to have an Apartheid government? Do remember that under Apartheid Black people had far more rights than women have now in many Middle Eastern countries.I’m in favour of liberal democracy but I respect the Middle Eastern nations’ right to have theocratic kingdoms etc.
I hate to invoke Godwin’s Law, but what if the “social mores” extend to the extermination of a race of people on an industrial scale? You’ll probably say that’s a classic case of reductio ad absurdum but many of these states would happily round up the people that offend the social norms set out in their Iron Age literature and execute them, if they could get away with it.I think that when it comes to social mores, yes.
As a matter of interest, in whom do you think the right to have a theocratic kingdom is vested? The king? The theocratic priesthood? The people?I’m in favour of liberal democracy but I respect the Middle Eastern nations’ right to have theocratic kingdoms etc.
I think there's a difference between consuming goods and services from which they will derive an economic benefit and actually working for them.Where do you draw the line? If you are a Man C or Newcastle or Arsenal fan, should you stop.? Should we disconnect from Disney+. ? Insist our cars only have North sea diesel and petrol, don't use Facebook, never stay in a Marriot hotel, boycott certain airlines. All of those have investments from the Middle East.
Not condoning their backward theocracy but it is not as easy a boycott as South Africa was.
Why? If nobody bought their exports (oil) then they wouldn't have the money to pay people to work for them. Without oil revenue, Saudi would be one of the poorest countries in the world rather than one of the richest. Likewise UAE and the other Gulf States. Boycotting their exports would be WAY more effective than Western ex-pats going home.I think there's a difference between consuming goods and services from which they will derive an economic benefit and actually working for them.
Exactly.Having said that, of course a boycott would be hugely problematic and might well hurt us far more than them. We need oil; so does every Western nation, and we don't have enough ourselves. Sure, we can wean ourselves off oil and the process is already underway, but for the next couple of decades at least, we're stuck with oil imports. So if we rule out the already sanctioned Russia, and the Middle East is to be off limits, where exactly is left? Iran has a far worse record than Saudi, plus it's a major sponsor of terrorism; Brunei is also a more oppressive regime than Saudi, and Venezuela (with huge reserves and a Communist government) can't even refine their own oil and relies on imports from Iran instead. So perhaps doing business with Saudi and the Gulf States is the lesser evil?
It may well be the lesser evil but it’s still an evil.So perhaps doing business with Saudi and the Gulf States is the lesser evil?
Nonsense. We buy products with supply chains from dozens of countries and thousands of suppliers. It is next to impossible to know how every participant in that supply chain was treated. Actively participating in the gross exploitation and oppression of others is an entirely different thing.It may well be the lesser evil but it’s still an evil.
That's complete nonsense as well as it's impossible to disentangle a country from the international markets.Anyone who, however reluctantly, derives utility from business conducted in these states is in no position to criticise others who set their bar differently in terms of what they consider morally justifiable.
It is 100% justified to criticise that young person for actively participating in a vile and oppressive system. They are going to a place where they won't pay taxes because that State doesn't provide the levels of social infrastructure that they would demand of their own government. They are actively participating in the exploitation and oppression of others for direct monetary gain.I think it’s a hideous and dangerous place to live but if a young working person, excluded from the housing market here, sees an opportunity to put together a wad of cash, how dare anyone tell them what moral standard they should observe when their own standard is also open to question.
But doing so indirectly, thanks to the complexity of international markets, provides sufficient comfort to allow for sound sleep.They are actively participating in the exploitation and oppression of others for direct monetary gain.
No, it's not the same thing at all.But doing so indirectly, thanks to the complexity of international markets, provides sufficient comfort to allow for sound sleep.