Time to revisit the benchmarking ATM?

R

RoyRover

Guest
Good article on the Irish Indo website on the complete unaffordability of benchmarking:

http://www.independent.ie/national-...enchmarking-atm-still-delivering-2461140.html

It's now almost 10 years since the productivity improvements were promised, but despite this, and the Croke park agreement, the returns just haven't been there.

Any new round of benchmarking should look at closing the gold plated defined benefit scheme, and dramatically reducing the number of holidays, flexi-days, and "travel" days at Easter and Christmas.

Its a step in the right direction for the government to threaten to impose more paycuts if efficiencies promised under the Croke park agreement are not delivered, but something more radical needs to be done.

Sen Joe O'Tooles free ATM needs to be restocked
 
Interesting to note that that the average pay increase under benchmarking was an average of 8.9% whereas the Government have now taken back an average of 15% !
 
The article you refer to is from December 2010 - why start a thread on it now?

A cynic might think that you're attempting to stoke up a public v private argument. This seems to be a favourite topic of yours if the following posts are anything to go by;

From 13/2/2011:

Scrap the Croke Park agreement

It's completely unaffordable, and stops the Government from imposing compulsory redundancies in non-jobs.

Stop all pay increments for TDs and all public servants for the next 24 months

During this time, a major review of pay increases linked to job performance could be developed to ensure that our top performing public servants get the pay rises they deserve, while the bottom quartile get nothing.

Also from 13/02/2011;

I don't think that the incoming government will have the luxury of honouring the generous terms in the Croke Park agreement hammered out between the cronies in the FF led government and their buddies in the greedy public sector unions.

Without their Labour Comrades on their back, FG should be in a good position to scrap the completely unaffordable Croke Park agreement and start a process of compulsory redundancies at the statuory minimum rates of payout.

Also from 13/02/2011;

I like their policy to cut the number of underworked back office staff in the civil service:
http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-fg-wo...rvants-2011-2/

From 20/2/2011;

All the more reason why the first thing the new government should do is revisit the Croke Park agreement, and tell the public sector and teachers unions that the game is up lads. The ordinary private sector worker can't subsidise those sort of pensions forever

From 24/02/2011;

Not just in their 50's. All those who joined the public sector up until the December budget will benefit from gold plated pensions for decades to come, paid for by the good old private sector worker and small business man.


From 25/02/2011;
I think the "support" for the Croke Park agreement with quickly evaporate from within Government once the size of the challenge before the incoming regime becomes clear.

The salaries and pensions of the public sector cannot be sustained.

From 19/3/2011;

Don't forget the "flexi", and the annual pay increments given out to more than 95% of staff each year. What private sector company could afford that? Even if they could, its no motivation to maintain and improve performance. Increments should ony be offered to the top 50% of performers

Surely you can find a more recent anti-public sector article in the O'Reilly Daily News? As a civil servant I would LOVE to be benchmarked, for example, my "equivalent" in AIB/BOI, both of which paid out the first round of pay increases under the Towards 2016 agreement. Would increase my salary by the 14% cut I've taken plus 3% on top of that. I agree 100% with your proposal:D
 
RoyRover said:
Good article on the Irish Indo website on the complete unaffordability of benchmarking:

http://www.independent.ie/national-...enchmarking-atm-still-delivering-2461140.html

It's now almost 10 years since the productivity improvements were promised, but despite this, and the Croke park agreement, the returns just haven't been there.

Any new round of benchmarking should look at closing the gold plated defined benefit scheme, and dramatically reducing the number of holidays, flexi-days, and "travel" days at Easter and Christmas.

Its a step in the right direction for the government to threaten to impose more paycuts if efficiencies promised under the Croke park agreement are not delivered, but something more radical needs to be done.

Sen Joe O'Tooles free ATM needs to be restocked
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Haven't you just contradicted yourself there? :confused:



aonfocaleile said:
The article you refer to is from December 2010 - why start a thread on it now?

A cynic might think that you're attempting to stoke up a public v private argument. This seems to be a favourite topic of yours if the following posts are anything to go by;

From 13/2/2011:

Scrap the Croke Park agreement

It's completely unaffordable, and stops the Government from imposing compulsory redundancies in non-jobs.

Stop all pay increments for TDs and all public servants for the next 24 months

During this time, a major review of pay increases linked to job performance could be developed to ensure that our top performing public servants get the pay rises they deserve, while the bottom quartile get nothing.

Also from 13/02/2011;

I don't think that the incoming government will have the luxury of honouring the generous terms in the Croke Park agreement hammered out between the cronies in the FF led government and their buddies in the greedy public sector unions.

Without their Labour Comrades on their back, FG should be in a good position to scrap the completely unaffordable Croke Park agreement and start a process of compulsory redundancies at the statuory minimum rates of payout.

Also from 13/02/2011;

I like their policy to cut the number of underworked back office staff in the civil service:
http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-fg-wo...rvants-2011-2/

From 20/2/2011;

All the more reason why the first thing the new government should do is revisit the Croke Park agreement, and tell the public sector and teachers unions that the game is up lads. The ordinary private sector worker can't subsidise those sort of pensions forever

From 24/02/2011;

Not just in their 50's. All those who joined the public sector up until the December budget will benefit from gold plated pensions for decades to come, paid for by the good old private sector worker and small business man.


From 25/02/2011;
I think the "support" for the Croke Park agreement with quickly evaporate from within Government once the size of the challenge before the incoming regime becomes clear.

The salaries and pensions of the public sector cannot be sustained.

From 19/3/2011;

Don't forget the "flexi", and the annual pay increments given out to more than 95% of staff each year. What private sector company could afford that? Even if they could, its no motivation to maintain and improve performance. Increments should ony be offered to the top 50% of performers

Surely you can find a more recent anti-public sector article in the O'Reilly Daily News? As a civil servant I would LOVE to be benchmarked, for example, my "equivalent" in AIB/BOI, both of which paid out the first round of pay increases under the Towards 2016 agreement. Would increase my salary by the 14% cut I've taken plus 3% on top of that. I agree 100% with your proposal:D
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Really good post, Aonfocaleile. I thought it was just me!

In answer to your first line, my humble opinion is that there's a wee bit of trolling going on.

An seanphort céanna, go deo, go deo!!! :D
 
Deiseblue said:
Interesting to note that that the average pay increase under benchmarking was an average of 8.9% whereas the Government have now taken back an average of 15% ![/QUOTE

I find this very this figure which is trotted out by Jack O'Connor et al pretty hard to believe - 8.9% over 10 years is nothing like what I was hearing from friends who work in the public service (including Mrs Roy) so I'd love to see the back up data if it is available which I doubt.

Roy
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onekeano said:
Deiseblue said:
Interesting to note that that the average pay increase under benchmarking was an average of 8.9% whereas the Government have now taken back an average of 15% ![/QUOTE

I find this very this figure which is trotted out by Jack O'Connor et al pretty hard to believe - 8.9% over 10 years is nothing like what I was hearing from friends who work in the public service (including Mrs Roy) so I'd love to see the back up data if it is available which I doubt.

Roy
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The increase of which you speak is a combination of increases under the various National Wage Agreements that pertained over the period of which you speak across all sectors allied to a benchmarking award which averaged 8.9 %.

The major portion of the increase is undoubtedly due to the NWA's rather than benchmarking .
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I would also point out that your reference to " towards 2016 " is flawed - PS workers received no increases under that agreement.

Also the data you provided covers the period 1998 to 2008 - subsequent to that latter date unilateral pay cuts were imposed on public sector workers averaging 15 %. - but then again Mrs. Roy probably told you that !
 
Interesting post guys. I have no interest in public service bashing or ideological arguments per se. I have some friends in the service, and I know they work hard; but I also have a sense that there is a fair few shysters. I know one or two of these too.

The problem (in my humble op.) seems a combination of very poor management who fail to get the best out of staff, fail to perform and deliver without any accountability and sceloric unions with a "not an inch" mentality.

Some who argue for the PS to be run along private sector lines blame the workers where the real problem is often the senior management who consistently fail to perform. Fail to lead, fail to inspire, fail to operate accountable systems. I know a top manager in the PS. He hardly breaks his neck working, despite his incredible salary & pension. I would be embarassed to be paid so much and do so little.

I have no problem with the PS being paid well. But I would like to see it managed better, and that needs reform, and the unions need to see this.

As a by the by, the comparisons for PS wages between IRL and elsewhere seem extraordinary. Why is this so? I'm not making a ideological point here, but it does seem questionable. Again, it seems this is mostly at the top, ie consultants etc.
 
You had me rushing to the dictionary there Horusd - " sceloric unions " ! :D

In terms of shysters in the workplace I think that they exist in every sector & whether or not their workplace is unionised or not there seems to be an endemic reluctance to deal effectively with this matter by endeavouring to improve performance by additional training or motivational methods or failing that by disciplinary means.

I would readily admit Irish Trade Union relationships with employers/management have traditionally been quite adversarial in the past on the basis that both sides have employed the old adage " give them an inch & they will take a mile "

However all that I think changed in the last couple of decades with the introduction of National Wage Agreements which largely removed the question of pay from employer/union negotiations & thus provided us with an era on unprecedented industrial peace.

I also think that the Croke Park Agreement shows an acceptance that reform is required , I know that there have been issues regarding privilege days & more recently disturbance money in the Cork area of the HSE both of which were dealt with by the arbitration process - the media however I feel would have us think that the Unions are being obstructive by using this agreed process !

As a trade unionist myself ,generally speaking, I have no problem with blaming management :) but I don't work in the Public Sector so maybe someone with a more direct involvement will revert on that point.

I would just say that the best manager I had in the Private Sector was a really laid back guy who never worked an hour overtime in his life but his man management skills & general nous moved mountains.
 
Where I live the leisure centre, pool and gym are run by the local authority as are the libraries. Being Ireland and people are off for a long bank holiday they may wish to visit the pool or get some books from the library.
But not to be. All closed from Friday to Tuesday. What a set up !!!
 
There’s no point in debating ‘til the cows come home what increases the PS got and why and how much has been taken away and why... The fact remains that the country is overspending by 20B per annum (30B in, 50B out) so ALL expenditure has to be looked at again and again and again until the books balance. Given how large a share of the expenditure it is, it’s hard to see PS pay as a whole remaining untouched.
 
Yorrick said:
Where I live the leisure centre, pool and gym are run by the local authority as are the libraries. Being Ireland and people are off for a long bank holiday they may wish to visit the pool or get some books from the library.
But not to be. All closed from Friday to Tuesday. What a set up !!!
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So you want the whole weekend off but you don't want that to extend to others? That said, its a valid point in terms of today (why are they closed today?? - I can't defend that) but I think you'll find that most things are closed on Easter Sunday and lots of businesses and offices would have been closed yesterday and will be closed on Monday also.

Why don't you complain directly to the leisure centre, library and pool and see what response you get.
 
Deiseblue said:
You had me rushing to the dictionary there Horusd - " sceloric unions " ! :D

I also think that the Croke Park Agreement shows an acceptance that reform is required , I know that there have been issues regarding privilege days & more recently disturbance money in the Cork area of the HSE both of which were dealt with by the arbitration process - the media however I feel would have us think that the Unions are being obstructive by using this agreed process !
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Hi DB - the "arbitration" process is a joke. The issue of privilage days went there an the wise men decided that celebrating some 19th century English monarchs birthday with a privilige day was not appropriate anymore. So what did they do? - The decided to cancel the privilige days and add the same amount to the formal holidays.

And what about the decision by the wise men to make a decision which meant govt researchers were awarded lump sums of €15k for every €10k saved when they claimed they needed to be compensated for loss of overtime - this when the country is bankrupt... it's no wonder the Germans consider the Iris to be shysters.

And while I'm at it - check out the average cost of employing someone in the LRC / Labour Court or EAT - it's hardly in their interests to fthe Govt to take a serious look at PS pay.....

By the way - you comments about all those agreements not being anything to do with benchmarking.........it was all the same Ahern scam - why did Charlie McCreevy insist that all documentation relating to benchmarking be destroyed once the awards were made....

Roy
 
I think that there seems to be the perception that its all the fault of management for example;

horsed;
Some who argue for the PS to be run along private sector lines blame the workers where the real problem is often the senior management who consistently fail to perform. Fail to lead, fail to inspire, fail to operate accountable systems. I know a top manager in the PS. He hardly breaks his neck working, despite his incredible salary & pension. I would be embarassed to be paid so much and do so little.
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Ok,so lets say this is the truth,we need to ask why this would be the case,and I would hazzard a guess that they know that if they dared to do so,they would be given short shrift..otherwise what this means is that almost every manager in the PS does not deal effectively with people,does not endeavor to improve performanance, and does not implement discplinary means..that they fail to lead ,to inspire to operate accountable systems..so are you saying that this is the case,are you now saying that there are in fact people who do not do their jobs efectivily and if so why are none of them sacked?

Are there no sanctions to deal with them?

I would be very interested to hear why you think the managers do not do any of the things you mention..

It is true that most if not all of the managers in the PS are union members.

In the private sector ,managers belonging to a union would be an exception rather than the rule..

So poor performing managers in the public service would be protected by their union and and it goes....


.
 
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thedaras said:
I think that there seems to be the perception that its all the fault of management for example;

Deiseblue;.

Ok,so lets say this is the truth,we need to ask why this would be the case,and I would hazzard a guess that they know that if they dared to do so,they would be given short shrift..otherwise what this means is that almost every manager in the PS does not deal effectively with people,does not endeavor to improve performanance, and does not implement discplinary means..that they fail to lead ,to inspire to operate accountable systems..so are you saying that this is the case,are you now saying that there are in fact people who do not do their jobs efectivily and if so why are none of them sacked?

Are there no sanctions to deal with them?
I would be very interested to hear why you think the managers do not do any of the things you mention..


.
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I really would love to help you out on that one Thedaras but you have incorrectly attributed the quote re PS management to me. :)

Perhaps horusd will get back to you.
 
onekeano said:
Hi DB - the "arbitration" process is a joke. The issue of privilage days went there an the wise men decided that celebrating some 19th century English monarchs birthday with a privilige day was not appropriate anymore. So what did they do? - The decided to cancel the privilige days and add the same amount to the formal holidays.

Roy
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In fairness, that was decided back in the 1930's. When the Irish civil service became a seperate entity from the British civil service, the 2 privelige days associated with the kings birthday (or whatever) were re-distributed at Easter and Christmas. The logic behind the move at the time was that civil servants wouldn't have to travel on either Good Friday or St Stephen's Day - they could travel home from the big city on the Thursday before Easter and back to Dublin for work December 27th. Those were different times, when religion was a much bigger factor. Privilege days have been abolished - no Civil Service run office was closed last Thursday or will be closed on Tuesday next as a result. The 2 days leave has been added to the civil servants total leave allocation.

Trying to tackle this was a half-hearted attempt to minimise the twice annual media blitz about civil service "privileges". The unions won the battle because the whole thing was handled badly and inequitably in terms of the impact it would have had across different grades. Levels of annual leave in the civil service are not a big problem. Its the ad hoc arrangements in the local authority sector that are the problem. LAs closing down for the whole of Easter, race week (Galway), Punchestown races (Kildare) and God knows what else, are the real problem. Very few public servants ever benefitted from privilege days - this was limited to the civil service only.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!
 
onekeano said:
Hi DB - the "arbitration" process is a joke. The issue of privilage days went there an the wise men decided that celebrating some 19th century English monarchs birthday with a privilige day was not appropriate anymore. So what did they do? - The decided to cancel the privilige days and add the same amount to the formal holidays.

And what about the decision by the wise men to make a decision which meant govt researchers were awarded lump sums of €15k for every €10k saved when they claimed they needed to be compensated for loss of overtime - this when the country is bankrupt... it's no wonder the Germans consider the Iris to be shysters.

And while I'm at it - check out the average cost of employing someone in the LRC / Labour Court or EAT - it's hardly in their interests to fthe Govt to take a serious look at PS pay.....

By the way - you comments about all those agreements not being anything to do with benchmarking.........it was all the same Ahern scam - why did Charlie McCreevy insist that all documentation relating to benchmarking be destroyed once the awards were made....

Roy
Click to expand...

The Labour Court and the LRC are well regarded independent arbitration bodies who do sterling work , with regards to the the privilege days you are of course right in that the reasons for same were historical & then as a matter of practise & precedent were then subsumed into leave terms & conditions -management clearly failed to prove their case to the labour Court for the removal of same.

National Wage Agreements were initiated in 1987 , very much pre Ahern & McCreevy - the benchmarking process didn't have a major impact on Public Salaries over the 1998 - 2008 period you referred to.

As to the salaries paid to the highly qualified employees who staff the various Labour arbitration bodies I have no problem with same - it must be a hugely difficult & stressful job dealing with increasingly confrontational issues.
 
Deiseblue said:
As to the salaries paid to the highly qualified employees who staff the various Labour arbitration bodies I have no problem with same - it must be a hugely difficult & stressful job dealing with increasingly confrontational issues.
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But with respect DB, the problem is that the people who are lending the money to us to pay these "highly qualified employees" DO have a problem with the the pay rates - it would be interesting to compare what their packages with the same type roles in Germany. I'm pretty sure you will find it is significantly less in Germany.

Roy
 
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