Time to revisit the benchmarking ATM?

[Deiseblue]

Although under the Croke Park Agreement there is an arrangement that teachers will work one additional hour per week & changes to shift work patterns will take place in the HSE there is nothing in the Agreement to suggest that the Government are seeking an increase in the standard working week hours.

Nor would the employees thank any Union that didn't protect such hard fought work/life balance hours.

Unfortunately the reality is that given the expected level of voluntary redundancies & retirements ( early or otherwise ) we are going to see a definite downgrading of services.

 

[orka]

Yes, but flexi time isn't a problem. However some people seem convinced its annual leave by another name.

How is there a cost involved? If I fit an extra day's hours into my standard month and then take those extra hours off in one day it doesn't cost the company. Also, it means people can work longer on busier days and work shorter hours on less busy days.

It's not flexi time per se that's the problem, particularly if it's easy to measure a person's output per hour. However, in companies I've worked in with flexitime, I would observe that the average flexi hour is not the same as an average core hour. There's less supervision outside of core time and there is a definite temptation to give yourself a bit of extra time to have your scone in the morning as a reward for getting in so early and then have time for a cup of tea in the evening because of the strain of staying late. There were always people staying late 'working up their flexi' and unless a manager was staying late too, it was difficult to police what work was getting done. This is not a public v private thing - my observations are all private companies. But I don't believe for a minute that an average flexi hour is the same as an average core hour - therefore it does come at a cost...

 

[liaconn]

Presumably your employer will have to have someone to fill you place when you are taking this time.

No, it's one day. If I'm out sick or on a day's annual leave I don't have to be replaced. Also, you can't just take your flexi day any time you want. If there's something specific happening or its an exceptionally busy period then you wouldn't be allowed take a flexi day and would have to take it another time.

 

[Sunny]

How is there a cost involved? If I fit an extra day's hours into my standard month and then take those extra hours off in one day it doesn't cost the company. Also, it means people can work longer on busier days and work shorter hours on less busy days.

Of course there is a cost. Look at the amount of administration the system requires. The cost of keeping and maintaining a proper timekeeping system. Look of the amout of time that has to be spent by managers on staff planning. People also to tend to run up flexi time when things are quiet i.e. they stay late even there is no need for it for no other reason than to be allowed time off when it suits them.

I don't have a problem with Flexi time but it is not a costless exercise.

 

[ashambles]

Happy King's day to anyone lucky enough to be off today from our public offices. Hope you're enjoying the privilege day.

Private companies tend not to let people build up holidays via flexi-time, mainly it's designed so staff can arrange convenient start/end/lunch times. It's seen as a way of turning an 8 hour office into a 12 hour one without paying overtime or asking people to work longer. Very handy when you're dealing with customers or colleagues across time zones.

I used be confused by people saying flexi-time was great, to me it just meant I was never sure when I was going home, I didn't realize until I was talking to public servants that there was a utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off.

 

[Howitzer]

I used be confused by people saying flexi-time was great, to me it just meant I was never sure when I was going home, I didn't realize until I was talking to public servants that there was a utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off.

I only had that realization a few years back as well. Disheartening.

 

[liaconn]

Happy King's day to anyone lucky enough to be off today from our public offices. Hope you're enjoying the privilege day.

Private companies tend not to let people build up holidays via flexi-time, mainly it's designed so staff can arrange convenient start/end/lunch times. It's seen as a way of turning an 8 hour office into a 12 hour one without paying overtime or asking people to work longer. Very handy when you're dealing with customers or colleagues across time zones.

I used be confused by people saying flexi-time was great, to me it just meant I was never sure when I was going home, I didn't realize until I was talking to public servants that there was a utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off.

I think you will find working up flexi days isn't confined to the public service or to Irish workplaces. Yes, of course some people will abuse it, but there will be lazy chancers in every type of workplace and they are always in the minority.

 

[Complainer]

I didn't realize until I was talking to public servants that there was a utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off.

You are still confused. There is no thumb-twiddling. There is a hard limit to the amount of flexi that can be taken - usually 1.5 days per month.

 

[orka]

You are still confused. There is no thumb-twiddling. There is a hard limit to the amount of flexi that can be taken - usually 1.5 days per month.

Of course there is SOME thumb-twiddling - in both the public and the private sector. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has worked in a large organisation operating flexitime hasn't seen people staying late for the sake of building up flexitime.

 

[Complainer]

Of course there is SOME thumb-twiddling - in both the public and the private sector. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has worked in a large organisation operating flexitime hasn't seen people staying late for the sake of building up flexitime.

I find it hard to believe that people don't seem to understand that Line Managers will Line Manage their staff to make sure these things don't happen.

 

[Sunny]

I find it hard to believe that people don't seem to understand that Line Managers will Line Manage their staff to make sure these things don't happen.

As a manager of only four people, I would be amazed if the line manager had time to micro manage what people were doing every minute of every day and micro managing peoples flexible working time apart from making sure the correct number of hours are worked. Are you saying nobody works extra hours for no reason other to build up hours to take when they need them? Or they don't spread the work over 9-10 hours when it really could be done in 8? That's certainly wasn't my experience when I operated under flexi time in the private sector. Can't imagine the public sector is any different.

 

[orka]

I find it hard to believe that people don't seem to understand that Line Managers will Line Manage their staff to make sure these things don't happen.

Every single line manager of every single employee efficiently manages their staff? Of course that's what should happen and it's possibly what happens most of the time but there's no way it happens ALL the time everywhere. And a problem with flexitime is that the line manager is unlikely to be there for every available flexi hour. As I said previously, that's fine if productivity can easily be measured after the event but that's often not the case.

Seriously, you think there is NO time/productivity leakage from flexitime?

 

[Complainer]

It doesn't take micro-management to know what staff are up to. It just takes a reasonable understanding of their workload, and the time that it will take to complete that workload. It's really not rocket science. Can I give an absolute guarantee that there is absolutely no possibility of any abuse of flexi anywhere in the public sector? Of course not. Can I give an absolute guarantee that there is no systemic 'utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off'? Yes, I can.

 

[orka]

It doesn't take micro-management to know what staff are up to. It just takes a reasonable understanding of their workload, and the time that it will take to complete that workload. It's really not rocket science. Can I give an absolute guarantee that there is absolutely no possibility of any abuse of flexi anywhere in the public sector? Of course not. Can I give an absolute guarantee that there is no systemic 'utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off'? Yes, I can.

No-one suggested systemic abuse across the entire public service (although TBH I expect there are small sections/departments with lax management in both the public and the private sector where there is complicit abuse). But there are problems with policing with flexitime and the problems are a wee bit bigger than your 'no absolute guarantee of absolutely no possibility anywhere' statement.

 

[Sunny]

It doesn't take micro-management to know what staff are up to. It just takes a reasonable understanding of their workload, and the time that it will take to complete that workload. It's really not rocket science. Can I give an absolute guarantee that there is absolutely no possibility of any abuse of flexi anywhere in the public sector? Of course not. Can I give an absolute guarantee that there is no systemic 'utopian flexi-time that can turn thumb twiddling time into days off'? Yes, I can.

Nobody is talking about systemic abuse. People probably don't even recognise they are doing it. Tell me, do the majority of people not end up with time off to take every month. If they do, it means that there is a problem because either the workload is too great that everyone needs to do overtime or people are using the system to their advantage. Most people would automatically work slightly longer days if it meant getting an extra day off every month. My point is that flexi time where you are allowed 'build up' hours is not a costless exercise as some people seem to think. It's also difficult to manage and doesn't help the identification of problem areas in regards to work flow and staffing levels.

 

[liaconn]

Of course there will be 'thumb twiddling' at times, but that happens regardless of whether or not there's flexi time. How often have you seen shop assistants standing around talking and ignoring the customer waiting to pay? How much official time do posters on here spend on AAM? The bottom line is whether or not the work is done. A good manager will know that. Believe me, the public service is not full of people looking to do the minimum of work for the maximum of benefit. Most people I know absolutely hate it if they're not being given enough work to do and will complain to their manager and then to Personnel if that happens. Why would any normal person want to sit around thumb twiddling and being bored?

 

[Complainer]

No-one suggested systemic abuse across the entire public service (although TBH I expect there are small sections/departments with lax management in both the public and the private sector where there is complicit abuse). But there are problems with policing with flexitime and the problems are a wee bit bigger than your 'no absolute guarantee of absolutely no possibility anywhere' statement.

The problems with policing flexitime are a red herring. Flexitime is just one of many possible reasons for staff to be working while their manager is not physically present. This might be because the manager is on leave, or is sick, or is on training, or is off at a strategic planning workshop, or is in a different office, or in a different building etc. Line management does not generally require the line manager to be sitting over the employee's shoulder. Objectives are set, and if they're not met, the performance management process kicks in. There is of course merit in the manager appearing at the employee's desk from time to time for a whole host of reasons, including immediate supervision.

Nobody is talking about systemic abuse. People probably don't even recognise they are doing it. Tell me, do the majority of people not end up with time off to take every month. If they do, it means that there is a problem because either the workload is too great that everyone needs to do overtime or people are using the system to their advantage. Most people would automatically work slightly longer days if it meant getting an extra day off every month. My point is that flexi time where you are allowed 'build up' hours is not a costless exercise as some people seem to think. It's also difficult to manage and doesn't help the identification of problem areas in regards to work flow and staffing levels.

Workload too great? Will ya tell me something I don't know! We're down 20% of staff and with greater demands than ever. Of course the workload is too great. Many staff lose extra flexi time built up over and above the 1.5 day limit each month.

This does not mean that flexi in itself is a problem. It is indeed a costless exercise. It simply allows staff to do the work at a time that suits them. Some people will work early or late to be able to take a Friday or Monday off. The work gets done - it's just a matter of when it gets done. There is no 'difficulty to manage' and no difficulty in 'identification of problem areas'.

 

[Sunny]

Of course there will be 'thumb twiddling' at times, but that happens regardless of whether or not there's flexi time. How often have you seen shop assistants standing around talking and ignoring the customer waiting to pay? How much official time do posters on here spend on AAM? The bottom line is whether or not the work is done. A good manager will know that. Believe me, the public service is not full of people looking to do the minimum of work for the maximum of benefit. Most people I know absolutely hate it if they're not being given enough work to do and will complain to their manager and then to Personnel if that happens. Why would any normal person want to sit around thumb twiddling and being bored?

Of course there is thumb twiddling everywhere at times. The difference is if I have to stay late for a hour to make up for the fact that I didn't work as efficiently as I could during the day, I don't get that hour back later in the month. Neither do shop assistants. (And I am not saying that every public sector worker is not working efficiently before that gets thrown back in my face). I saw the system in the private sector and it just didn't work.

And again pointing out the problems with flexi time is not me saying that everyone in the public sector is looking to do the minimum amount of work for the maximum of benefit. I know plenty of people in the public service who don't have flexi time, don't get paid overtime and work bloody long days. We are simply pointing out that claiming that there is absolutely no loss of productivity or cost to the public service with flexi time is naive. All employees would love to have flexi time. If it is cost neutral, why doesn't every company offer it? It would do wonders for staff morale.

 

[Sunny]

This does not mean that flexi in itself is a problem. It is indeed a costless exercise. It simply allows staff to do the work at a time that suits them. Some people will work early or late to be able to take a Friday or Monday off. The work gets done - it's just a matter of when it gets done. There is no 'difficulty to manage' and no difficulty in 'identification of problem areas'.

So the demand for the service drops on a Friday or Monday does it?

Or do other people have to get your work done which in turn means they are worked off their feet and have to work late so can take next Friday and Monday off. Remind me again how it is costless?

 

[Complainer]

We are simply pointing out that claiming that there is absolutely no loss of productivity or cost to the public service with flexi time is naive.

Can you please explain specifically what extra cost or loss in productivity arises from somebody working one hour extra on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and then taking a half-day on Friday?

All employees would love to have flexi time. If it is cost neutral, why doesn't every company offer it? It would do wonders for staff morale.

Perhaps you should ask this question to those who don't offer it?