Rip-off Republic Episode 3

[Grumpy]

When the Euro came to Ireland, stories abounded about how much more expensive things are in Ireland.Not everything, everywhere but enough to make us close to the most expensive country in Europe.Why?
Is it something intrinsically celtic?
Eddie is telling us why.Does the rollcall of some of the usual suspects (Pee Flynn, George Redmond, Liam Lawlor) not give just a wee indication that its not an accident?
Maybe we should deny his arguements and then maybe we won`t feel like the fools we are to have tolerated this for decades.
If the presentation seemed a little amateurish, it also gave it a freshness and clarity.
I await with great interest the response from government/business.
Just how will they attempt to bury this troublesome little man!

 

[ubiquitous]

Pee Flynn left national politics in 1993. George Redmond retired about 15 years ago at age 65. Liam Lawlor has not had any meaningful influence on national policy making since Haughey stepped down in 1991. Even though they each appear to have serious questions to answer on the NTR M50 toll deal, its a bit much to attribute ALL our woes to these three gents - especially the post-2002 Euro inflation!

 

[podgerodge]

CC said:
So why is the mixed grill a rip-off? Is the Merrion Hotel ripping me off charging me €5 for a pint of Guinness? Absoultely not. If I want to enjoy a pint in the fabulous surroundings of that hotel, then I pay the price. If I don't want to pay €15 for a mixed grill, I have loads of other options. I could slum it and visit the catering car on the train. I could eat beforehand or afterwards. I could even bring my own sandwiches.
Brendan

So if the Merrion Hotel started charging Eur15 a pint would you then consider it a rip-off? Even though you could still go to Tesco and drink at home.

My understanding of the term "rip-off" as used over the past couple of years in Ireland, is that the charge is above and beyond cost + profit and is an indicator of seeing "how much can i get away with here?"

And Eur15 for a grill IMHO is a prime example of same.

 

[Humpback]

There was not one concrete example of a rip-off on the entire programme. If you choose to define a rip-off as "anything you don't like about modern Ireland", then of course we live in "Rip-off Republic".

I think it was an earlier show where Eddie described a rip-off as a "win-lose" transaction. It's a little off the wall, and probably not in any dictionary, but I'd go along with it.

I think the point of last nights programme and the rip-off it was illustrating was the fact that we pay SO MUCH money in taxes to do with buying/using our cars (not disputing the rights and wrongs of these taxes), yet we get SO LITTLE when it comes to how that money is spent on roads etc.

We are not getting value for money on how our money is being spent on roads (and yes, we all HERE know that).

 

[ClubMan]

My understanding of the term "rip-off" as used over the past couple of years in Ireland, is that the charge is above and beyond cost + profit and is an indicator of seeing "how much can i get away with here?"

Why do you assume that there is some sort of reasonable profit margin and that anything more is a rip-off? It's the nature of free market capitalism that businesses will strive to maximise profits. The corollary is that the free market leaves it open to others to enter, compete and - from the consumer's point of view - provide choice and downward pressure on prices. Of course the consumer is not a passive entity in all of this and must exercise choice in where they spend their money. If some people are happy to spend €5 on a pint or €15 on a mixed grill (or even if they are not happy, spend it anyway and then start moaning about it) then that's their prerogative.

And Eur15 for a grill IMHO is a prime example of same.

If people stop paying the allegedly rip-off prices in question and use one of the practical alternatives suggested by Brendan earlier then the businesses in question will be forced to reduce their prices.

 

[podgerodge]

If people stop paying the allegedly rip-off prices in question and use one of the practical alternatives suggested by Brendan earlier then the businesses in question will be forced to reduce their prices.

I agree. But the rip-off only exists because not everyone does this. And while people are prepared to pay for something reluctantly, or stupidly, they should be allowed do so and call it a rip-off!

 

[Betsy Og]

Isnt there a point that VRT is contrary to the EU free market?? - fairly sure I heard Conor Faughnan talk re this before.

While Kilmeadan gave us all of the taste and none of the waste - is Ireland importing pain for the taxpayer or various sectors (e.g. nitrates directive for farmers, weee on electric appliances etc.) by implementing EU Directives that suit the exchequer or make us look like responsible EU citizens but ignoring other aspects of EU governance that would benefit the consumer/taxpayer but hurt the exchequer??

On the motoring theme, how about:

EU wide competition in the insurance industry - why not happened?, Irish profits were well above EU levels (and probably still are since, though premuims reduced a bit, personal injury claims also being reduced).

Promoting diesel cars as more environmentally friendly, more efficient, potential for use of renewable bio-fuels in diesel engines, at the very least there could be equivalent car tax i.e. tax on a 1.9L diesel being the same as a 1.6L petrol (i.e. why penalise the environmetally friendlier and more efficient option??).

Cut all duty on bio-fuel, give research grants. What better way to improve the economy but giving us our own home produced fuel - and with the new de-coupled farming regime, there is or will be plenty of underutilised land looking for something to be done.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

So if the Merrion Hotel started charging Eur15 a pint would you then consider it a rip-off?

No I wouldn't call it a rip-off. It would be ridiculously expensive and I would not drink there. But it would not be a rip-off.

I am looking at the various dictionary meanings of "rip-off", and they tend to mean:

1. A theft.
2. A thief.
3. An act of exploitation

My Penguin reference dictionary also defines it as "the charging of an exorbitant price".

The problem we face is that the media and Eddie have redefined the word to meaning charging high prices. And that is a pity. Ireland is a booming economy and prices are high.

Brendan

 

[RS2K]

Yes Clubman, but that's exactly the problem.

We have been almost totally apathetic to high prices, and that I think is beginning to change now.

We are entitiled to see value for money from our taxes.

Up to now we've taken all this from Bertie etc. for years and we simply re elect the crooks. That's plain crazy.

Budgets and overuns - a lot of nonesense written on here. If a budget is unrealistic it's worthless. If I knew in advance the likely cost including crazy overuns on any project I could make a decision based on reality, and perhaps go for a better value alternative. Accountability is the issue here.

I'm not party political btw - they all suck as far as I'm concerned.

If any party can provide full accountabilty, transparency, honesty, and value for our taxes they are likely to do well in the future.

 

[ClubMan]

I agree. But the rip-off only exists because not everyone does this. And while people are prepared to pay for something reluctantly, or stupidly, they should be allowed do so and call it a rip-off!

It's not a rip-off. It would be a rip-off if they didn't tell you the price in advance or changed the price that they charged you once you had transacted the business. If you know the price up front and can make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to make a purchase then there is simply no rip-off. I would certainly not pay €5 for a pint or €15 for a mixed grill. Some people obviously would. Good luck to them. Just as long as they don't cry rip-off after the fact.

Besides, if you agree that certain alleged "rip-offs" exist only because consumers don't exercise their discretion enough then your ire should be directed at them and not at the retailers or the Government. Even EH, from time to time, berates consumers for helping to perpetuate such situations through their buying behaviours and habits.

 

[RS2K]

It's not a rip-off. It would be a rip-off if they didn't tell you the price in advance or changed the price that they charged you once you had transacted the business. If you know the price up front and can make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to make a purchase then there is simply no rip-off. I would certainly not pay €5 for a pint or €15 for a mixed grill. Some people obviously would. Good luck to them. Just as long as they don't cry rip-off after the fact.

The definition of rip off may be changing I think.

I think €10 tops is a fair pirce for a good mixed grill for example.

The thing is if I'm hungry and fancy good food in a decent place it's €15. i spent the €15 but that doesn't mean I've had value for my money.

 

[contemporary]

It was my first time to see ROR having read about it here and elsewhere and while the content of the program appeared to be factual, why does hobbes feel the need to talk to us like we are 10 year olds, I found it be be very degrading and ruined the show

 

[CCOVICH]

There is a very serious issue if we plan our infrastructure based on €300m estimates but which should have been estimated at €800m. We do need to address this bad planning and seek to correct it. There is a problem, but it is not a problem of rip-off. And that is my main issue with the programme and everyone who labels everything they don't like about Ireland as a rip-off.

Agreed. But I feel that we are getting 'ripped off' in the sense that it is our taxes that are paying for the planners who underestimate these costs. Someone else pointed out that individuals constantly underestimate the costs of say, building their own home. Fair enough, but the people who are responsible for planning infrastructure are professionals, and surely should have a better appreciation of what a major project costs than Mr. Smith next door. I don't expect estimates to be spot on, but I expect a greater degree of accuracy than has been shown in recent years. Maybe there are signs that it's beginning to change. I read in the Irish Times last week that three road projects are due to be completed this year, on time (ahead of schedule AFAIR), and some were under budget. That's a welcome change to what we have been hearing about the M50, Port Tunnel, Luas etc. in recent years

To me a rip-off is where you are quoted one price and charged another; where you are quoted a misleading price; where suppliers act together to keep the prices to artificially high. Eddie suggests that this may have happened in the car industry and if it did, those guys would be guilty of a criminal offence.

Well aren't misleading estimates or tenders equivalent, or delays to the original timescale where you are charged the same price, close enough to 'price' for the purpose of discussion? I understand your frustration of people bandying about the term 'rip off' without perhaps giving full consideration to what they are attempting to describe, but 'rip off' has clearly come to mean different things to different people. I guess it's a more emotive term than simply saying 'poor value', 'high prices' or 'I didn't bother to shop around/investigate before I bought it and am paying for it now'

Wrt to the car industry, didn't the CA raid a couple of dealerships last year? I don't know if anything has/will come of this?

 

[Grumpy]

Pee Flynn left national politics in 1993. George Redmond retired about 15 years ago at age 65. Liam Lawlor has not had any meaningful influence on national policy making since Haughey stepped down in 1991. Even though they each appear to have serious questions to answer on the NTR M50 toll deal, its a bit much to attribute ALL our woes to these three gents - especially the post-2002 Euro inflation!

Where did "ALL" come from?
But all these years later, spare a thought for these gents as you pay Eur1-80 using the Westlink TODAY.

 

[ubiquitous]

Someone else pointed out that individuals constantly underestimate the costs of say, building their own home. Fair enough, but the people who are responsible for planning infrastructure are professionals, and surely should have a better appreciation of what a major project costs than Mr. Smith next door.

When Mr Smith next door plans the building of his house he employs a professional planner and/or architect, and a solicitor to ensure that the legals are in order. It doesn't stop the price rocketing between the initial planning phase and final completion.

Well aren't misleading estimates or tenders equivalent, or where you are charged the same price, close enough to 'price' for the purpose of discussion?

Eddie Hobbs made no allegation that any estimate or tender was misleading. Neither have I heard any such allegation elsewhere.

Its ludicrous to include "delays to the original timescale" as part of any alleged "rip off" as most of these are down to extraenous factors - objections, land vendors holding out for higher prices etc

 

[ClubMan]

I think €10 tops is a fair pirce for a good mixed grill for example.

Why? How would you break that €10 down in terms of costs, tax, profit etc.?

The thing is if I'm hungry and fancy good food in a decent place it's €15. i spent the €15 but that doesn't mean I've had value for my money.

Why spend money if you don't get value for it so? Spend it elsewhere where you do.

 

[RS2K]

The €10 tops valuation is my own. I neither mind nor care how it's broken down. I'd guess ingedients might be maybe €2.50?

I already said why I spent it. I wanted decent food in a decent place.

 

[ClubMan]

The €10 tops valuation is my own.

Fair enough.

I already said why I spent it. I wanted decent food in a decent place.

So - no rip-off even if you breached your own mixed grill price cap of €10. You saw that the price was €15 and decided to pay it presumably because you judged that the decent food and surroundings merited the additional charge. Fair enough. If you were dissatisfied with the food (e.g. quality, portion size etc.) then you were free to complain and even decline to pay. Where's the rip-off?

 

[RS2K]

Fair enough.


So - no rip-off even if you breached your own mixed grill price cap of €10. You saw that the price was €15 and decided to pay it presumably because you judged that the decent food and surroundings merited the additional charge. Fair enough. If you were dissatisfied with the food (e.g. quality, portion size etc.) then you were free to complain and even decline to pay. Where's the rip-off?

I got poor value. Nail hit on the head.

 

[CCOVICH]

Eddie Hobbs made no allegation that any estimate or tender was misleading. Neither have I heard any such allegation elsewhere.

Ok, but why isn't the final price = tender/estimate if the tender/estimate is not misleading (defn: "possessing the capacity or tendency to create a mistaken understanding or impression ")? If I hear that an estimate/tender is €500m and the actual cost turns out to be €1,000m, then I have been misled (i.e. the estimate/tender created an impression (rightly or worngly) that the actual cost would be €500m not €1,000m).

Its ludicrous to include "delays to the original timescale" as part of any alleged "rip off" as most of these are down to extraenous factors - objections, land vendors holding out for higher prices etc

Why is it ludicrous? I consider objectors and land vendors to be just as responsible for the 'rip offs' of recent years as the planners/contractors. I don't blame the government for actions outside their control (but legislation could be enacted to change this, and has been mooted in the past, but was knocked back by M. McDowell, no?).