Rip-off Republic Episode 3

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi folks

Please restrict this thread to issues raised in Episode 3 only.

More general issues can be raised in any of the many other threads on the topic e.g.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Show Me The Rip-Off?

 

[jasconius]

Must say, I did not learn anything new from this program. All he has done is stitch a few ancient clips together of politicians promising the s,m and stars (what's new), show us he can use a mobile phone from his FWD tank (what's new), throw a few numbers up on the screen garnered from any newspaper (what's new) and eat a mixed grill on a train to Cork (don't understand the relevance of that one).

What's the punchline ?


Poor,sorry I watched

 

[Lemurz]

Well it confirmed one thing - there is serious money to be made in construction and the taxpayer/Government seems to be the one getting ripped off judging by the cost overruns quoted.

It seems to be the only thing keeping the Irish economy moving, accounting for EUR 27 billion or 22% of GNP & directly providing 233,000 jobs or 12% of total employment. (twice as many jobs as agriculture).

I suppose it's better than paying out dole money?

 

[Guest127]

nothing we didnt know already. still hurts though. especially that vrt on cars.

 

[Eurofan]

nothing we didnt know already.

I think thats the point though, nothing we didn't know already. I'd like to think members of this forum make a point of informing themselves about the relevant issues.

However many don't and he's very successfully getting the message accross to a much much wider audience.

Watered down it may be but as far as I'm concerned it can only be a good thing.

 

[jasconius]

You are right Eurofan in what you say, but what was point of filming the mixed grill meal on the Cork Express - showing off??

 

[Bizzy]

jasconius

but what was point of filming the mixed grill meal on the Cork Express - showing off??

I think the point was that the mixed grill, reclining chairs, and Italian waiter didn't make up for the high price of the rail ticket. It was a Rip-Off. If Government want to encourage us to use Public Transport this is not the way to go about it. So, why did they increase rail fares? According to the boy from the Lee - It's because the Government has more to make from people continuing to drive cars. More cars = more VAT+VRT.

That's my guess on the Mixed Grill!

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Bizzy

There was not one concrete example of a rip-off on the entire programme. If you choose to define a rip-off as "anything you don't like about modern Ireland", then of course we live in "Rip-off Republic".

The vast majority of us are quite happy to travel by the standard train class and we know the fare well in advance. It is not a rip-off. I don't know how it compares to other countries, so it might be expensive or cheap. If we can't afford it, we can travel by bus or hitch.

But this is the key point. No one is forced to travel first class. No one in first class is obliged to buy a mixed grill.

We may or may not have mismanaged our construction projects. But that does not make them rip-offs.

Brendan

 

[CCOVICH]

We may or may not have mismanaged our construction projects. But that does not make them rip-offs.

Surely the mismanagement of construction projects is a rip off in the sense that the price taxpayers were charged for the project was several times higher than the original figure? Or that projects haven't delivered expected benefits? I don't want to get into semantics here, but surely these are 'rip offs' in some way?

 

[podgerodge]

No one in first class is obliged to buy a mixed grill.

Brendan

I don't agree - just because you are not obliged to purchase something does not mean it isin't a rip-off. Over Eur15 for a grill is a rip off if you're hungry and you want one.

 

[tiger]

but surely these are 'rip offs' in some way?

I totally agree with CCOVICH, and I'm glad Eddie highlighted it last night. The biggest "rip-off" is the way the government has been p****ng money up the wall on massive infrastructure projects that don't deliver what they promise and go way over budget.

In any other business this level of performance wouldn't be tolerated, but the humble Irish tax payer keeps coming back for more...

 

[RS2K]

Hi Bizzy

There was not one concrete example of a rip-off on the entire programme. If you choose to define a rip-off as "anything you don't like about modern Ireland", then of course we live in "Rip-off Republic".

The vast majority of us are quite happy to travel by the standard train class and we know the fare well in advance. It is not a rip-off. I don't know how it compares to other countries, so it might be expensive or cheap. If we can't afford it, we can travel by bus or hitch.

But this is the key point. No one is forced to travel first class. No one in first class is obliged to buy a mixed grill.

We may or may not have mismanaged our construction projects. But that does not make them rip-offs.

Brendan

€15 for a mixed grill is outrageous surely?

 

[Ceist Beag]

The single biggest theme I've gotten so far from the three shows is that Eddie is trying to show how we are not getting value for money for the many taxes we pay in this country. And that, to me, is a message well worth telling. I think that they are the single biggest culprits in ripping off the people in this country, not the retailers, or service providers. I think if it could be shown that the taxpayers money was sensibly spent, with good value being obtained, there would be a hell of a lot less complaints. And then yesterday we hear the figures about the pensions these guys are on (multiple pensions in some cases) ... I tell ye it just gets better!!

 

[ubiquitous]

This was the first of the ROR programmes that I have seen. It was entertaining in a shallow sort of way, but I didn't like Eddie's negativity and tendency to sneer. Neither was I impressed by his abject failure to suggest even one possible solution for the many problems he addressed.

Despite his opening spiel about being stuck in traffic for 2 hours a day, I got the impression that Eddie would be happier if we hadn't bothered upgrading our transport infrastructure at all in the past 10 years, simply because everything cost too much - much like an old farmer going around with the backside out of his trousers but who won't buy a new suit because they're more expensive than 10-20 years ago. He complained strongly about tolls. He complained strongly about VRT & VAT on cars. He complained strongly about the tax burden on the public. He even complained about the price of a €15 grill on the train. Its hard to know what would make Eddie happy.

 

[tallpaul]

The single biggest theme I've gotten so far from the three shows is that Eddie is trying to show how we are not getting value for money for the many taxes we pay in this country. And that, to me, is a message well worth telling. I think that they are the single biggest culprits in ripping off the people in this country, not the retailers, or service providers.

Ceist Beag has it spot on. The overwhelming message from last night's show is that it is the GOVERNMENT that is ripping off people the most in this country. Between tax on petrol, VAT on petrol, VRT on cars, VAT on cars, their share of the toll bridge fare and all the other indirect taxes that we now have to pay, it is the Government that are creaming it. And what does the taxpayer get in return? More indirect taxes, pure waste of money in overspends and pie in the sky plans calculated on the back of an envelope.

The programme is quite dumbed down but it has to be. When you see people filling up in petrol stations that are 10c a litre dearer than the one down the road, the programme has to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

As an example, what is to stop Brian Cowen reducing the amount of take the Government gets from a litre of petrol/diesel and therefore reduce the price to the motorist?? Nothing but there is no way he will do it as the overspends and the waste of taxpayers money has to be paid from somewhere

 

[Brendan Burgess]

CC said:

Surely the mismanagement of construction projects is a rip off in the sense that the price taxpayers were charged for the project was several times higher than the original figure? Or that projects haven't delivered expected benefits? I don't want to get into semantics here, but surely these are 'rip offs' in some way?

It's not really semantics and again there is little evidence of rip-off. The programme format is designed for entertainment rather than for information, so there was no one around to discuss or challenge the figures.

If I think something will cost €300m and it ends up costing €800m, there are two explanations. Eddie would only have us believe one explanation. The correct cost is the lower figure of €300m and therefore we have been ripped off by €500m. The much more likely explanation is that the planners underestimated the cost in the first place. Seamus Brennan made a very good point, which was derided by Eddie. The cost overrun should be compared with the tender documents, not with the original plan. All large projects must go out to tender across the entire European Union. It is a competitive market.

There is a very serious issue if we plan our infrastructure based on €300m estimates but which should have been estimated at €800m. We do need to address this bad planning and seek to correct it. There is a problem, but it is not a problem of rip-off. And that is my main issue with the programme and everyone who labels everything they don't like about Ireland as a rip-off.

To me a rip-off is where you are quoted one price and charged another; where you are quoted a misleading price; where suppliers act together to keep the prices to artificially high. Eddie suggests that this may have happened in the car industry and if it did, those guys would be guilty of a criminal offence.

So why is the mixed grill a rip-off? Is the Merrion Hotel ripping me off charging me €5 for a pint of Guinness? Absoultely not. If I want to enjoy a pint in the fabulous surroundings of that hotel, then I pay the price. If I don't want to pay €15 for a mixed grill, I have loads of other options. I could slum it and visit the catering car on the train. I could eat beforehand or afterwards. I could even bring my own sandwiches.

As far as I remember I only travelled first class on a train once. I paid a high price for the breakfast, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not resent paying for it.

Brendan

 

[ubiquitous]

As an example, what is to stop Brian Cowen reducing the amount of take the Government gets from a litre of petrol/diesel and therefore reduce the price to the motorist??

There is in fact a compelling economic logic behind Cowen's decision to do nothing on this. The theory is that when international fuel prices increase, this puts pressure on government spending in all sorts of areas (for example the minibus operator from Sligo on Morning Ireland today who is looking for a 30% increase in his fees for bringing kids to school). As govt spending goes up, the govt has to raise additional amounts in taxation. Reducing taxes on petrol & diesel would make this task more difficult.

By the way, I ate a meal in a local hotel bar last evening and the mixed grill cost €14...

 

[jasconius]

In a democracy you get who you elect.

 

[ubiquitous]

If I think something will cost €300m and it ends up costing €800m, there are two explanations. Eddie would only have us believe one explanation.

Anyone who has completed any construction project (eg built or extended their home) in the past decade will know that it is extremely difficult to complete the job without going over-budget. Some of this is to do with the ever-increasing cost of construction labour. Some of it is to do with ever-increasing standards and regulation, health and safety being one prime example. Some of it is to do with the unexpected glitches and hitches that arise on every project, most of which are impossible to predict. These matters are simple facts of life and in the Tiger and post-Tiger era have been impossible to avoid.

For example the guy who planned to buy a site and build a basic house for £80,000 in 1995 probably found it cost him £100,000 if he built it in 1997, £130,000 if he did so in 2000, €200,000 if he did so in 2003 or €250,000 if he built it in 2005.

The same obviously applies to road & rail construction projects - even more so as projects of such magnitude by their very nature will extend over many years and in an era when there have been extreme hikes in the prices demaned for land acquisition.

The "mistakes" that the State sector has made are the same "mistakes" that have been made by tens of thousands of citizens up and down the country. Yet Eddie would have us believe that collectively the State sector is "stupid" and collectively the rest of us are "smart". I refuse to buy into such an infantile analysis.