Israel attacks aid ship

[DublinTexas]

So for those who don’t trust that the Israeli’s are going to distribute the aid Egypt has now offered that they would accept aid into their port of El-Arish and then pass it through the Rafah border crossing into the Gaza pending inspection and only aid (no weapons etc.).

So if people are serious about aid, than accept that offer instead of the Israeli and your aid will reach the people it needs.

To insist to break the blockade which is imposed to stop a terrorist organisation from attacking civilians is adding nothing.

 

[Purple]

Here’s an idea; why don’t all the peace activists go over there and sing songs till they get Hamas to stop firing thousands of rockets into Israel and sending young women to blow up busses full of school children and old people. Then Israel will lift the blockade. As I said earlier the real question that needs to be asked is who benefits from the current situation. Israel doesn’t; it needs to spend hundreds of millions protecting itself. Most of the people of Gaza don’t; they live in poverty and the hope of a bright future had been taken away from a generation of children. The real beneficiaries are the fundamentalist lunatics in Hamas; little Hitler’s who rule their tiny empires, much like the IRA nutters in the North did/do. Other who benefit are the leadership in Iran who can divert attention away from problems at home by pointing to an enemy at their gates (very 1984ish, or even George W Bush-ish).
The last time there was full engagement the Americans under Clinton and the Israelis helped Arafat set up the Palestinian Authority and the IDF trained and armed the new police force. The Palestinians then used those guns to attach Israel. That conflict was started by a small group of extremists on both sides but the Palestinians have shown a complete inability to restrain the extremists from dragging the majority into conflict. This culminated in what was in reality a Palestinian civil war (after the embezzler Arafat died) and the West Bank and Gaza are now run by groups that hate and fear each other more than they hate or fear Israel. So what do the Israelis do? Who do they talk to? How do they get a negotiated peace?

 

[Betsy Og]

That would be a start (using the Egyptian port), but there still remains the point as to whether Israel is entitled or morally justified to impose a blackade on an entire nation. Ditto the Cuban blockade, disallowing civilian supplies to a country does nothing politically but only ensures hardship for ordinary citizens. Does anyone seriously think that Fidel & his crew or the leaders of Hamas go short because the entire country/area is being strangled. Are there going to be fruit juice or bandages bombs landing in Israel if the shipments go through.

 

[Sunny]

Here’s an idea; why don’t all the peace activists go over there and sing songs till they get Hamas to stop firing thousands of rockets into Israel and sending young women to blow up busses full of school children and old people. Then Israel will lift the blockade. As I said earlier the real question that needs to be asked is who benefits from the current situation. Israel doesn’t; it needs to spend hundreds of millions protecting itself. Most of the people of Gaza don’t; they live in poverty and the hope of a bright future had been taken away from a generation of children. The real beneficiaries are the fundamentalist lunatics in Hamas; little Hitler’s who rule their tiny empires, much like the IRA nutters in the North did/do. Other who benefit are the leadership in Iran who can divert attention away from problems at home by pointing to an enemy at their gates (very 1984ish, or even George W Bush-ish).
The last time there was full engagement the Americans under Clinton and the Israelis helped Arafat set up the Palestinian Authority and the IDF trained and armed the new police force. The Palestinians then used those guns to attach Israel. That conflict was started by a small group of extremists on both sides but the Palestinians have shown a complete inability to restrain the extremists from dragging the majority into conflict. This culminated in what was in reality a Palestinian civil war (after the embezzler Arafat died) and the West Bank and Gaza are not run by groups that hate and fear each other more than they hate or fear Israel. So what do the Israelis do? Who do they talk to? How do they get a negotiated peace?

There are two sides in it and both are as bad as each other.

The way to deal with it is the same that the UK dealt with the IRA surely. As sickening as it may be, the only way to deal with the issue is to talk to the extremists and that means Hamas. I am sure the UK Government fell sick in their stomachs having to talk to Gerry Adams and Martin Mc Guinness but they did it. They are now talking to the Taliban as well.

All I know is that launching all out war against a whole people for the actions of extemist terrorists and engaging in a strategy of collective punishment is not going to solve the issue and will only make the problem worse. Despite having nuclear weapons, superior armed forces and the support of a superpower, Israel is no safer now than it was 15 years ago. Surely the time has come to admit that what they are doing is not working.

Maybe Ireland and the UK can do something in the region that a Country like the US will never be able to achieve. Building houses and the Peace Process are what we do best and Gaza needs both! (obviuosly we need to careful we don't create a property bubble)

 

[Latrade]

Purple I 100% agree with you. Hamas is perpetuating the misery on the very same people it is supposed to be representing. But as Sunny says, refusing to deal with them (despite winning an election) on the basis of being terrorists has never worked in the history of disputes. Like all extreme groups, they only represent the suffering at a very superficial level, most people do not support the violence. However within those extreme groups are people who will sit down, are more moderate progressive people, sticking them behind a blockade doesn't help. There is no will on behalf of the Israeli government (not its people) to engage with Hamas.

Begin conspiracy theories about how much support Israel gets from being at "war" with Hamas. I think that's rubbish, peace and safety would be far more profitable.

However, in my opinion that does not excuse the actions taken by Israel with the ships and those on board. Both sides bring in all kinds of historical wrongs in order to justify a recent act and I don't believe that the actions of Hamas excuse the boarding and shooting of people protesting and perhaps, at worst, guilty of a bit of political devilment.

 

[DublinTexas]

Now the “people before profit alliance” is organizing a march tonight, are they not the same guys who tried to storm Anglo Irish recently?

That would be a start (using the Egyptian port), but there still remains the point as to whether Israel is entitled or morally justified to impose a blackade on an entire nation.

In my opinion yes they are. When they left the occupied territory of Gaza an agreement was reached and Hamas has broken that agreement and started firing rockets (both homemade and our Jordan/Iran source). Israel has the right to ensure that only material reaches Gaza that cannot be used to make weapons and as such they need to inspect incoming goods.

It also has the responsibility to allow real aid through that is needed and they clearly need to do more there.

Are there going to be fruit juice or bandages bombs landing in Israel if the shipments go through.

I would google the material needed to build a rocket but I fear that if I do that the NSA would hunt me down and next time I go to the land of the free the FBI is going to interview me. But you have a point; material that is aid should and must be allowed through. But that requires inspection and that is what Israel tries to do here. Inspect and than deliver what is clearly aid.

Despite having nuclear weapons, superior armed forces and the support of a superpower, Israel is no safer now than it was 15 years ago. Surely the time has come to admit that what they are doing is not working.

I agree with the assessment that Israel is no safer now than 15 years ago in respect of the Palestinian question, but I don’t think that other countries will make their mistake of attacking Israel again like in June 1967.

The right solution is a 2 state solution where they both agree on the right of each state to exist and to stop military action. I’m all for it and don’t get me wrong, while I agree with Israel on most of what it’s doing, settlements in occupied territory is wrong.

 

[Purple]

The way to deal with it is the same that the UK dealt with the IRA surely. As sickening as it may be, the only way to deal with the issue is to talk to the extremists and that means Hamas. I am sure the UK Government fell sick in their stomachs having to talk to Gerry Adams and Martin Mc Guinness but they did it.

That would work if it wasn’t for the fact that Hamas are busy killing anyone who wants to talk to Israel. They aren’t just killing them, they are killing their families as well. Israel can be completely over the top in its actions and can, as it has done now, score massive own goals but there is no way anyone should equate extremist like Hamas, who would murderer every man woman and child in Israel if they got the chance, with the government or people of Israel.

 

[Sunny]

That would work if it wasn’t for the fact that Hamas are busy killing anyone who wants to talk to Israel. They aren’t just killing them, they are killing their families as well. Israel can be completely over the top in its actions and can, as it has done now, score massive own goals but there is no way anyone should equate extremist like Hamas, who would murderer every man woman and child in Israel if they got the chance, with the government or people of Israel.

Who is comparing them to Israel? Hamas like the IRA are vile self serving creatures who have no place in this world. They are a large part of the problem but that also unfortunately means they are a large part of the solution.

Doesn't mean that Israel can be given carte blanche to do what they like though. Part of the responsibilities of being a democratic state is that you don't sink to the standards of the people trying to destroy you. Otherwise, what are you trying to protect?

I don't know how to get them talking. The answer won't come from blockades though.

 

[NOAH]

israel only exist because of the USA and without them they would be overrun. the treatment of the Palestinians is worse than apartheid, big walls, separate roads, passports forbidden, millions driven out, does it sound familiar> aka the wild west when the only good injun was a '''''' one.

the killing of a us citizen may concentrate minds.

I wonder what the reaction would be in an Arab state was behaving like Israel?

 

[Purple]

israel only exist because of the USA and without them they would be overrun. the treatment of the Palestinians is worse than apartheid, big walls, separate roads, passports forbidden, millions driven out, does it sound familiar> aka the wild west when the only good injun was a '''''' one.

the killing of a us citizen may concentrate minds.

I wonder what the reaction would be in an Arab state was behaving like Israel?

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[NOAH]

it means israel can do exactly as they please and not a lot anyone or country can do about it. Let me give you and example == false passports. Name one other country that used the same ploy.

Israel are untouchable and they know it.


NOAH

 

[Purple]

Are you seriously suggesting that most, if not all, large countries don’t allow their special forces/ intelligence services use false passports?
Think China, France, UK, USA, South Africa, Russia, Brazil, Holland, Belgium, Australia, Italy, Jordan, Syria, India, Pakistan.
All of the above have active intelligence services that travel to countries all over the world. France, the USA and Britain have all taken unilateral military actions against other sovereign states in the last 20 years. The USA has invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada and Panama. Britain participated in both US invasions and France has attacked the Ivory Coast blowing up its air force on the ground (Killing dozens and costing a poor state hundreds of millions) as well as famously and infamously sending hundreds of it’s special forces to fight on the side of the genocidal forces on the ground in Rwanda, killing thousands and prolonging the genocide by weeks which facilitated the killing of at least another 100’000 people.

In none of the above examples was there any credible threat to the state that did the attacking; they were simply protecting their own economic and/or political interests.

BTW, in all of the above we have maintained our usual craven and cowardly status of neutrality. In the international integrity stakes Ireland is at the bottom of the pile; cowards and hypocrites who have since the foundation of our state asked other countries to bleed and die to protect our freedom while all we do is occasionally wag our fingers at them because we don’t like the way they do things which we are not prepared to do.

Irish people criticising the behaviour of other states have a cheek.

 

[Purple]

israel only exist because of the USA and without them they would be overrun.

Israel exists because of Britain and Lord Balfore and the general movement of Jews into the Region of the Ottoman Empire loosely referred to as Palestine from the mid 18th century. It is sustained because of financial aid from America and it’s own highly developed industrial base. It is not the only country in the Middle East that is helped by the US.

the treatment of the Palestinians is worse than apartheid, big walls, separate roads, passports forbidden, millions driven out, does it sound familiar> aka the wild west when the only good injun was a '''''' one.

As I’m sure you are aware under the partition of British administered Palestine (Trans-Jordan and what’s not Israel) all of the Jewish people were forced to move to Israel and all of the non-Jewish people were forced to move out of Israel. The problem arose because the Hashemite Kingdom in Jordan didn’t want the Palestinians as they would be a threat to their hegemony so the Palestinians were left in no-mans-land. The million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens do have passports and live and move freely within Israel. BTW, there weren’t millions driven out of anywhere (unless you are getting mixed up with the partition of India). Most of the Jewish and Arab who lived in Palestine in the late 1940’s had moved there since the 1860’s.

the killing of a us citizen may concentrate minds.

Agreed

I wonder what the reaction would be in an Arab state was behaving like Israel?

They do, all the time.

 

[DublinTexas]

israel only exist because of the USA and without them they would be overrun.

Israel is not the only country in the Middle East that is relying on the USA for support. Kuwait being the obvious example, without the US they would never have driven out Saddam. Saudi Arabia is the other, without the US supporting their particular form of government the people there might have long time ago thrown that regime over.

And the last time someone tried to overrun Israel I think they have proven that they are able to deal with that rather swiftly on their own, thank you very much.

Also clearly (while never confirmed) the IDF can deploy tactical nuclear weapons so even mad Iran will think twice of trying to over run.

the treatment of the Palestinians is worse than apartheid, big walls, separate roads, passports forbidden, millions driven out, does it sound familiar> aka the wild west when the only good injun was a '''''' one.

Well I would suggest you read a little about how Israel came about and you will very fast see that the English (once again them) are responsible for the driving out. And not only Palestinians were driven out of their previous living areas, Israelis were driven out of their too and forces to live in a special area.

Now is there mistreatment on both sides, sure that is unfortunate in light of the armed conflict that Hamas is waging. Only if the 2 states are formed and accept each other’s right to exist we might see a move to the better. But Hamas does not even want to accept that Israel exists.

I wonder what the reaction would be in an Arab state was behaving like Israel?

Ever been to Iran?

Let me give you and example == false passports. Name one other country that used the same ploy.

The English during World War II. But otherwise are you saying that no other security service ever is using false passports? The difference here is that Mossad did a bad job and got caught.

 

[Purple]

Who is comparing them to Israel?

Earlier you said;

There are two sides in it and both are as bad as each other.

 

[csirl]

Nothwithstanding the comments about Israeli independence. Gaza was part of Egypt until 1967 - years after the state of Israel came into being. Since then it has been abandoned by Egypt - it cant be regarded in the same light as the west bank.

 

[Betsy Og]

BTW, in all of the above we have maintained our usual craven and cowardly status of neutrality. In the international integrity stakes Ireland is at the bottom of the pile; cowards and hypocrites who have since the foundation of our state asked other countries to bleed and die to protect our freedom while all we do is occasionally wag our fingers at them because we don’t like the way they do things which we are not prepared to do.

Irish people criticising the behaviour of other states have a cheek.

Think you're way OTT. No foreigner has even indirectly bled for our freedom (and Norn Iron semantics not relevant to this discussion) since the early 40's. Since then we, through our involvement in the UN, have bled for others, not the other way around.

Vis a vis WWII, as a soreign state we reserved the right to defend ourselves. We now know the State knew on which side its bread was buttered and helped the Allies while not making themselves a target for the Nazis. Plenty of Irishmen fought with the Allies (far greater than with the Nazis) and plenty more helped the effort by working in factories in the UK. As a budding nation recently freed from our oppressor I think we played a blinder. "Ireland stood alone for 700 years and never surrendered her soul" - me likes that.

A final question - has the Irish state any blood on its hands? (barring our own of course, HSE & all the rest). I think not, this makes me feel proud that, nearly exclusively among Western European countries, we dont have the blood of colonialism or covert operations on our hands. OK I'm not saying its beacuse we're the nicest, most moral people in the world, it probably has more to do with being too busy trying to sort ourselves out, but nevertheless we can hold our heads high in whatever country we find ourselves.

Maybe we havent shouted equally as loudly at every foreign indiscretion but to say we have a cheek to criticise other at all is nonsense. Plus your argument is a bit contradictory - we're the worlds worst for not picking up on every foreign nations indiscretion equally, so from here on we should keep our mouths firmly shut and criticise nobody. Doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Purple]

During the height of the colonial era we were part of the UK and Irish men went to the colonies in their droves to crack heads and stamp on the natives. Look at the role of Michael O'Dwyer (a Tipperary man) and Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer (Indian born of Irish stock, educated in Cork) in the Jallianwala Bagh massacre (the bit in the film “Gandhi” when the British Army opened fire with machine guns on a civilian crowd).

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of Irish men committing the most horrendous acts all over Africa and India. The idea that just because Ireland as a state didn’t have any colonies in 1922 doesn’t excuse the actions of Irish people before that.
Since the late 1940’s we have hid behind NATO (during the cold war), allowing other countries to spend billions defending us from an aggressive and totalitarian Soviet Union. We have willingly traded with countries with terrible human rights records that were supporting terrorists and terrorist organisations that were killing our neighbours.

 

[Betsy Og]

The idea that just because Ireland as a state didn’t have any colonies in 1922 doesn’t excuse the actions of Irish people before that.

Since the late 1940’s we have hid behind NATO (during the cold war), allowing other countries to spend billions defending us from an aggressive and totalitarian Soviet Union. We have willingly traded with countries with terrible human rights records that were supporting terrorists and terrorist organisations that were killing our neighbours.

Thats just daft - the Irish people are to be cowered because a few of their stock were bad???, so all Americans should keep the head low because they produced Jeffrey Dahmer, Austrians - Arnold Swarz , France - Thierry Henry ???

Irelands geography is such that we're NOW lucky to be surrounded by relatively stable countries - but believe you me they are not spilling a drop for our benefit, nor spending a Euro to defend "us". We have a fortunate accident of geography at last, should we unnecessarily waste money for the sake of it, we could line up tanks along the sand dunes in wait for the Russians or, I dunno, some Jihad Armada, but would you explain it to the pensioners why we have to cut back so that we can be real men defending Western Civilisation? We play our part through the UN, why should we be a lacky for the US under the guise of NATO?

Re the Cold War, that was more about global superpowers jockeying for position than anything else - after WWII the Russians and the rest of the Allies had their carve up and away they went, I dont think its credible that Britain and France, as nearby examples, feared a Soviet invasion. Apart from that if you want to defend an outcrop deep in the South Atlantic for your own economic greed then you're on your own .........

When exactly did we trade with countries that were killing our neighbours?? We may have bought South African bananas in Dunnes Stores, and sold beef to the gulf, but I dont recall us propping up Libya or anything.

 

[Purple]

Thats just daft - the Irish people are to be cowered because a few of their stock were bad???, so all Americans should keep the head low because they produced Jeffrey Dahmer, Austrians - Arnold Swarz , France - Thierry Henry ???

If it was just one or two or even a few hundred that would be one thing but Irish people have a long history of siding with the oppressor when the opportunity arose. From the Irish who fought to keep slavery in the USA to those who murdered their way around the colonies.

Irelands geography is such that we're NOW lucky to be surrounded by relatively stable countries - but believe you me they are not spilling a drop for our benefit, nor spending a Euro to defend "us". We have a fortunate accident of geography at last, should we unnecessarily waste money for the sake of it, we could line up tanks along the sand dunes in wait for the Russians or, I dunno, some Jihad Armada, but would you explain it to the pensioners why we have to cut back so that we can be real men defending Western Civilisation?

No one is suggesting that. We should just be grateful that other countries spent 50 years spending their taxes and risking their troops to keep us free so that we didn’t have to.

We play our part through the UN, why should we be a lacky for the US under the guise of NATO? [/QUOTE] So you’re cool with the Chinese and Russians having a veto over when and where we send our troops but you don’t think we should work with the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium and our other EU neighbours?

Re the Cold War, that was more about global superpowers jockeying for position than anything else - after WWII the Russians and the rest of the Allies had their carve up and away they went, I dont think its credible that Britain and France, as nearby examples, feared a Soviet invasion.

They did indeed fear a Soviet invasion, and with get good reason. They feared it so much that they landed the biggest amphibious invasion force in history in Normandy in 1944 to stop the Russians occupying Western Europe... or do you really think that D-Day was about stopping the already defeated Germans??? They then went into Korea to stop the totalitarian Chinese. The Cold War was far more than a bluffing game. The fact that it didn’t turn into a hot war in Europe (unlike the millions it killed in Africa and South East Asia) doesn’t diminish that.

When exactly did we trade with countries that were killing our neighbours?? We may have bought South African bananas in Dunnes Stores, and sold beef to the gulf, but I dont recall us propping up Libya or anything.

Yes, we sold beef to the Libyans and we campaigned at EU level to stop trade embargoes against them even when they were the training ground for every second nutcase from the Provo’s to the budding Al-Qaida.