Israel attacks aid ship

umop3p!sdn said:
Why was it 'Okay' for the British army to bring guns into Ireland, but not the IRA?
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It's funny that so many Shinners support Hamas and not Israel since the historical parallels between the Jews and the Northern Irish Catholics are so strong.
In answer to your question; the same thing that made it OK for the Irish government to bring them in to this part of Ireland but not the IRA.
 
Ancutza said:
I'm so, so sick and tired of the State of Israel and it's gung-ho, 'screw you' attitude to the rest of the world that I just wish it would vanish up it's own bum-hole. We'd all sleep better at night.
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Well you must be a big fan of the Iranian government so. How do you feel about them hanging homosexual teenagers?

Name one other state in the Middle East that treats the Palestinians who live there better than Israel treats the over one million Palestinians who live in Israel proper and are full citizens there.
Tell me how the oil rich Arab states have helped their Arab brothers since 1948.
Tell me why the Palestinians were excluded from the Arab League for years.
Tell me why Yasser Arafat got away will stealing millions from his own impoverished people.
Explain why after a two state solution was agreed and the USA and Israel (not the oil rich Arab states) pumped over one billion dollars into the Palestinian territories Palestinian extremists derailed the whole thing and plunged their own people into anarchy and even greater poverty.

And please don’ start talking any rubbish about the Palestinians being there first. Read a bit of history before you do that.

The greatest ironies in all of this are; One, the Jews and the Palestinians are generically the same people. The Jews didn’t invade the land of Canaan, the people there just converted and Two, the only nation in the Middle East that doesn’t want a poverty stricken and unstable Palestinian population is Israel. The rest of them want things to stay as they are so that simpletons in the West wag their finger at the excesses of Israel and ignore the much greater crimes being perpetrated by most of the Arab states.
 
Tinker Bell said:
You've got to take a look at who armed them to the teeth. And the reasons for so doing. And while you're at it, check out the Jewish connections to the USA/Brit media. And if you're really bonkers, read why they regard these actions as a Divine right - in the sacred book (available in all good newsagents).
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The same people who armed the Saudis armed Israel. The British, Americans, Dutch, Swedish, French, Russians and Chinese are also arming countries in the Middle East. Christians, Jews and Muslims all claim a divine right in the Middle East. That's why they call it the Holy Land.

Religions are all just different brands of crazy to me so I don't buy any of it. I try to be rational. I try to look at the whole picture and ask the simple questions. Ask yourself who benefits from Gaza being a waste ground, a breeding ground for fanatics? It isn't Israel so who is it? It does benefit Israel’s neighbours who oppose its existence as it is a constant propaganda coup against Israel. That question contextualises all others.
 
It's funny that so many Shinners support Hamas and not Israel since the historical parallels between the Jews and the Northern Irish Catholics are so strong.
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I don't support Sinn Fein, or any political party because none of them represent my views. I have no other comment to make on this.
In answer to your question; the same thing that made it OK for the Irish government to bring them in to this part of Ireland but not the IRA.
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That doesn't answer my question.
During the Irish war of Independence, was it 'okay' for both sides to arm themselves?
 
Moral Ethos said:
I would like to know who is picking up he bill to repatriate these people back to Ireland?
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I presume the Dept. of Foreign Affairs is. In fairness they are Irish citizens and while I disagree with their methods I admire their courage and it does highlight the plight of the people of Gaza, if in a simplistic and anti-Israeli way.

BTW, did anyone notice the protest marches in Israel, protesting against the actions of the IDF and government. Good to see a democracy in action.
 
Purple said:
I presume the Dept. of Foreign Affairs is. In fairness they are Irish citizens and while I disagree with their methods I admire their courage and it does highlight the plight of the people of Gaza, if in a simplistic and anti-Israeli way.

BTW, did anyone notice the protest marches in Israel, protesting against the actions of the IDF and government. Good to see a democracy in action.
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Yes, it tis a good thing to see indeed. Now, if only the gazians would march and protest about hamas, that will be good as well. Oh wait though...
 
Purple said:
Right, so while we were part of the UK we participated actively in empire building but once we got our independence we got to forget about all that. Kind of like a child saying "Game over!... New game!" BTW, I never suggested that Ireland had an empire, I really don't understand where you got that from. I simply pointed out that we were part of the UK and the UK had an empire.
Your thesis seems to be that actions by Irish people before 1922 don't count because we were ruled from London.
It's a nice idea but the reality is just a little bit more complex than that.
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Ffs, we had to fight to practice our religion, then we were let starve, then we had to fight for independence, so obviously we were on the inside all along... Sinn fein famously had an abstentionist policy so we ABSOLUTELY can distance ourselves from the actions of a colonial occupier pre independence. P.s. Is this a wind up?, are you Kevin Myers having a laugh?
 
I presume the Dept. of Foreign Affairs is. In fairness they are Irish citizens and while I disagree with their methods I admire their courage and it does highlight the plight of the people of Gaza, if in a simplistic and anti-Israeli way.

BTW, did anyone notice the protest marches in Israel, protesting against the actions of the IDF and government. Good to see a democracy in action.
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Oh please!! give it a rest already! I'm about to lose my dinner and I spent the last 2 hours cooking it.

One of my wifes best friends from high-school is an israeli doctor/tank commander who posted loads of shots of himself on Facebook,standing in front of Merkava tanks, during operation Cast Lead (you know, the one where they fired white-phosphorus shells at civilians?) Apparently he's going to be back in the country of his birth next month for a knees-up. I'm looking forward to a frank and open debate with him about why it's wrong to counterfeit the passports of friendly nations so you can go about assasinating people in 3rd party countries and the relative merits of air-burst shells over the ones that hit the ground before they go off. No doubt he'll enlighten me as to how they got the plans to reproduce the Berlin Wall and fascinate me with regaling stories of how one of his tanks took out a journalist on live TV because the journalist had the temerity to point a TV camera at said tank. Remember that one? Think it was about a year ago. Abit after his mates in the infantry shot-up a screaming and terrified small kid crouching beside a wall with his Dad killing both of them too.

Should be a night to remember. I'll keep you posted.
 
Betsy Og said:
Ffs, we had to fight to practice our religion, then we were let starve, then we had to fight for independence, so obviously we were on the inside all along... Sinn fein famously had an abstentionist policy so we ABSOLUTELY can distance ourselves from the actions of a colonial occupier pre independence. P.s. Is this a wind up?, are you Kevin Myers having a laugh?
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Sinn Fein wasn't founded 'till 1905 so they are indeed in the clear. Irish people were actively involved in colonial wars from the 1700’s through to the late 1890’s. Many of them were part of the Protestant establishment and unionists but they were Irish none the less (or do you have to be a Catholic to be properly Irish?).
On a personal note my family is in the clear; good IRA stock during the war of independence and before that just too dirt poor to matter.

Generally we forget that modern Irish Nationalism is a recent thing with the first “Patriots”, men like Henry Grattan (a protestant) looking to repeal Poynings Law in the 1780’s. During the time of Cromwell we were Clan based and had no real notion of a national political identity. If we had then there wouldn’t have been a three way war going on at the time.
The idea that we can superimpose our modern national commonality on history and treat the last 400 years (since the Tudor re-conquest) as if we were France under German occupation is nonsense. Our modern definition of Irishness, the one I believe in (a democratic liberal republic) just didn’t exist back then. It did in the minds of some but for most people such notions were either irrelevant (if they were poor) or dangerous (if they were part of the establishment). Certainly after the Ascendancy there was a very much planted and English hue to the establishment but they, as so often happens, turned native (or saw that they could get richer with more self government) and so we get back to Grattan.

It is not possible to simply say we were an occupied nation and so whatever we did was done under duress.
 
Ancutza said:
Oh please!! give it a rest already! I'm about to lose my dinner and I spent the last 2 hours cooking it.

One of my wifes best friends from high-school is an israeli doctor/tank commander who posted loads of shots of himself on Facebook,standing in front of Merkava tanks, during operation Cast Lead (you know, the one where they fired white-phosphorus shells at civilians?) Apparently he's going to be back in the country of his birth next month for a knees-up. I'm looking forward to a frank and open debate with him about why it's wrong to counterfeit the passports of friendly nations so you can go about assasinating people in 3rd party countries and the relative merits of air-burst shells over the ones that hit the ground before they go off. No doubt he'll enlighten me as to how they got the plans to reproduce the Berlin Wall and fascinate me with regaling stories of how one of his tanks took out a journalist on live TV because the journalist had the temerity to point a TV camera at said tank. Remember that one? Think it was about a year ago. Abit after his mates in the infantry shot-up a screaming and terrified small kid crouching beside a wall with his Dad killing both of them too.

Should be a night to remember. I'll keep you posted.
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While you are at it ask him why his fellow officer thinks it's alright to murder children.
While there were some sickening excesses during Operation Cast Lead, such as using white phosphorus rounds, killings that take place outside of the heat of battle disturb me more since, as in the case I linked to, a well trained and experienced officer who was not under fire made a decision to kill a child in cold blood. It is shameful that he is not in prison for murder since murder is what it was. If you want to start a thread on Israeli excesses, up to and including mass murder, I’ll be happy to contribute but that doesn’t change the broader facts of the situation.
 
UptheDeise said:
Yes, it tis a good thing to see indeed. Now, if only the gazians would march and protest about hamas, that will be good as well. Oh wait though...
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In fairness there's not much opposition to Hamas; they've murdered most of the opposition.
 
That is the internal opposition and the IDF are getting on with murdering the rest. Very soon there won't be many left so israel will get the lot and if I recall that was the object of the excercise from day one. Then the west(usa) will have a nice buffer state in the middle east in case the oil is turned off.
 
NOAH said:
That is the internal opposition and the IDF are getting on with murdering the rest. Very soon there won't be many left so israel will get the lot and if I recall that was the object of the excercise from day one. Then the west(usa) will have a nice buffer state in the middle east in case the oil is turned off.
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You either don't know anything about the recent history of the issue or you are choosing to ignore it.
 
this is now part of history as well

"
one thing is fast becoming clear – many of the dead were shot multiple times at point-blank range. One was a journalist taking photographs. "A man was shot ... between the eyebrows, which indicates that it was not an attack that took place from self-defence," Hassan Ghani, a passenger, said in an account posted on YouTube. "The soldier had time to set up the shot." Mattias Gardell, a Swedish activist, told the TT news bureau: "The Israelis committed premeditated murder ... Two people were killed by shots in the forehead, one was shot in the back of the head and one in the chest." ​
​
I leave you to guess what it is describing.​
​
naoh​
 
I was talking about this comment;
NOAH said:
That is the internal opposition and the IDF are getting on with murdering the rest. Very soon there won't be many left so israel will get the lot and if I recall that was the object of the excercise from day one. Then the west(usa) will have a nice buffer state in the middle east in case the oil is turned off.
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It seems clear that the IDF at the very least made an utter balls up of the landing but ask yourself who benefits from what happened. It certainly isn't Israel.

You can quote from passengers and I could quote from family members of Palestinian children shot by the Israelis on their way to school… we could also quote from family members of Israeli children blown to bits while on the bus on the way to school. All conflicts are full of emotion, suffering and rage. Both sides can claim the moral high ground depending on when you start counting and where you are looking from. Doing so solved nothing and sheds no light on the issue. Ask the simple logical questions, the ones based on medium term self interest, and look for the root causes of current events, not the victims of the eventual consequences.

The blockade of Gaza should be highlighted but so should the real reasons; a fundamentalist Islamo-Facist group called Hamas, the active attempts by Arab states to derail the Camp David peace talks and the Palestinian Authority that resulted from them, the inaction of Egypt and the far right religious fundamentalist nut-jobs on the Israeli side.
The Palestinians are the victims here, of that there is no question but who’s victim are they?
 
Purple, I'd just love to bring you out to dinner with Robert Fisk. We'd have a rare 'ould time altogether!!! ;) If we can arrange it then I'll pick up the tab but you have to bring a member of the Knesset!
 
Ancutza said:
Purple, I'd just love to bring you out to dinner with Robert Fisk. We'd have a rare 'ould time altogether!!! ;) If we can arrange it then I'll pick up the tab but you have to bring a member of the Knesset!
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You move in more salubrious circles than me. I'm just a guy who reads.
I don’t know any members of the Knesset but if you have the contacts how about bringing along one of the Arab members?
 
i read myself purple...but a word to wise, not all in the printed matter can be takn as gospel! in fact most of it can and should be taken with a large grain of salt.
 
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