HSE Hire Ban removal?

But you think its okay to make these wild generalsied statements about ALL the public sector.

I wouldn't consider them wild given the comparison with Public sector work hours and levels of efficinecy when compared to the private sector. The underlying fact is that we have a taxpayer funded body operating in an in-efficient manner and it had to stop. All public sector bodies should be given the same treatment not just the HSE.
 
Where people are paid per hour is the greatest source of in-efficiency. In both public and private sectors this is abused. If an employee turns up for work and clock in at 8:00 am and clock out at 7:00 pm, but yet only does 4 hours productive work the other hours are a direct loss and unrecoverable. Where agreed set salaries are in place the hours can be recouped and production maintained.

I am talking about a fair days work for a fair days pay. What ever the method of payment or the mechenisem to access payment.
 
If it is outmoded political ideolgy that workers should be paid fairly. then im outmoded.
Fairly is the key. People get paid what they earn, not what they need. If there is a shortfall between the two this should be filled through social welfare. Social engineering is not the function or responsibility of a private business. If you do not accept this then you are indeed utterly outmoded.

If it is outmoded that workers need to have a collective voice and show unity I am ooutmoded.
What is your definition of a “worker”?
 
Fairly is the key. People get paid what they earn, not what they need. If there is a shortfall between the two this should be filled through social welfare. Social engineering is not the function or responsibility of a private business. If you do not accept this then you are indeed utterly outmoded?

Straw men time again.

What is your definition of a “worker”?[/quote]
 
Straw men time again.

What is your definition of a “worker”?
Eh?
I am a worker; I derive my income from my days work (I go with Tony Benn’s definition of a “worker”). So are most of the business owners in Ireland. Some business owners simply own the business and pay someone else to run it so I suppose they are not "workers". Some people are not employers and don't work but derive their income from rent, shares, royalties etc. Some people are employed but have their own business in which they employ other so they are both an employer and an employee. Some managers are owners and some are employees.

So I ask again, what is your definition of a "worker"? In the real world there is no clean break between "Workers" and "Management" so we will have to construct an theoretical scenario before I can reply to your post in which you state "
If it is outmoded that workers need to have a collective voice and show unity I am outmoded."
 
Eh? So I ask again, what is your definition of a "worker"? In the real world there is no clean break between "Workers" and "Management" so we will have to construct an theoretical scenario before I can reply to your post in which you state "
If it is outmoded that workers need to have a collective voice and show unity I am outmoded."


A business owner is someone who takes initive and control and bears risk and tries to derive a profit from that risk. where goods and services is involved this will usally mean employing workers to fulfill certain duties which are central to the business making a profit. the diferenece between you as owner and worker and someone as an employee/worker is huge.

Where are you going with this?
 
A business owner is someone who takes initive and control and bears risk and tries to derive a profit from that risk. where goods and services is involved this will usally mean employing workers to fulfill certain duties which are central to the business making a profit. the diferenece between you as owner and worker and someone as an employee/worker is huge.
No it's not. We all require that those we work with do their job well or all our jobs are under threat.
Where are you going with this?
I want to show that the there is no clear line that can be drawn beween, no clear definition of what constitutes, workers and managers or a worker and an employer. A carpenter who employs an apprentice is an employer. A guy on the board of City Bank is a worker. Do you think the banker needs protection from the carpenter and him ilk?
 
We all require that those we work with do their job well or all our jobs are under threat.

true but it is not an equal relationship. And nor it should be. Business owners take a risk they should be rewarded. That is what makes business work.
 
Where people are paid per hour is the greatest source of in-efficiency. In both public and private sectors this is abused. If an employee turns up for work and clock in at 8:00 am and clock out at 7:00 pm, but yet only does 4 hours productive work the other hours are a direct loss and unrecoverable. Where agreed set salaries are in place the hours can be recouped and production maintained.
This shows a distinct lack of understanding of most public sector work environments, and many private sector environments. How do you measure the productive work of a policy advisor. It may months of meetings/calls/emails/draft to get a policy idea accepted by relevant officials, and then all that work might get blown out of the water by a political whim. Does that mean the policy advisor was not productive? If you're lucky, one phone might just result in a change of legislation that improves the quality of life for thousands of people (I've seen this happen), but that is really down to luck - not down to the productivity of the advisor. How do you measure the success of a Community Welfare Officer - is it the number of cases he sees (which creates an incentive to rush through cases, regardless of the result), or how much/little welfare they provide? The same issues apply to many knowledge worker roles in the privae sector. In much of the public sector, it is effectively impossible to quantitatively measure productivity. In the UK, several chief constables recently announced publicly that they have decided to ignore Govt instructions about achieving specific targets and they are moving back towards empowering their officers on the street to deliver good policing.

Maybe this post says it all. In the private sector this "them and Us", "Workers and management" ethos is very rare and in the truly competitive sectors it is non-existent. Basically if I don't do my job properly and efficiently the people who work for me can’t pay their mortgage and if they don't work the same way I can't pay mine. There is no "them and us", we are all in the same boat. I hate when some bearded clown from a public sector union starts prattling on about "the workers" as if they were a bunch of half-wits who couldn't look after themselves and "Management" as if managers didn't work (and in many cases were promoted to their positions from the roles that they now manage). This is not a Dickens novel; it's 21st centaury Ireland with all the laws and safeguards that go with it.

Indeed, this kind of polarisation of 'them and us' is generally unhelpful. Just as the kind of polarisation of public vs private as frequently seen on this thread and others on AAM is unhelpful.

Public sector and private sector aren't different worlds. Public sector staff and private sector staff aren't different races or cultures. They are all just people. People move to/from both sectors frequently. People generally do their best to do a decent day's work for a decent day's pay.

Yes, there are skivers on both sides of fence. Yes, there are great managers and bad managers on both sides of the fence. Trying to create division through polarised arguments will not solve any of the many problems that exist in both the public and private sectors.

I work in the public sector, and my administrator has been calling and emailing weekly the venue that hosted an event for us last year. We've been telling them each week that we owe them €4.5k and we'd like a valid invoice so we can pay this money. The great, competitive private sector business hasn't been able to produce a correct invoice in 4 months, despite the fact that we've given them the damn figures repeatedly.

We're all consumers, and we all come up against examples of great service and terrible service in both the public and private sectors. No-one has a monopoly on efficiency or inefficiency.

Those who like to believe the Daily Mail rants about overpaid and underworked public servants might like to check out some of the facts and conclusions from the recent OECD report on the Irish public services - see - Here's a few (admittedly selective) quotes;

From 1995 to 2005, public expenditures in Ireland experienced real increases of more than 5% annually, second only to Korea in the OECD . Much of this spending has been in the health and education sectors. [...] Much of these increases have reflected a need to play catch-up from historically low levels. In 2005, Ireland still had the third lowest public expenditure rates as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), third only to Korea and Mexico
The number of Public Service employees has increased significantly by 30%
between 1995 and 2007, but also from a low base relative to other OECD countries
Ireland’s real average annual growth rate in public expenditure between 1995 and 2005 was 5.1%, significantly slower than real GDP growth of
7.5% (Figure 1.1). Government policy therefore has actually decreased the total number of public sector employees as a percentage of the labour force and decreased the overall public sector wage bill as a percentage of GDP.
In comparison with other OECD countries, Ireland thus has been able to deliver public services with a public sector that is relatively small given the size of its economy and labour force (Table 1.1 and Figure 1.2). Even when factoring in infrastructure investment, Ireland has the third smallest total public expenditure as a percentage of GDP, and this figure has actually decreased over the past 10 years.
etc etc etc
 
This shows a distinct lack of understanding of most public sector work environments, and many private sector environments. How do you measure the productive work of a policy advisor. It may months of meetings/calls/emails/draft to get a policy idea accepted by relevant officials, and then all that work might get blown out of the water by a political whim. Does that mean the policy advisor was not productive? If you're lucky, one phone might just result in a change of legislation that improves the quality of life for thousands of people (I've seen this happen), but that is really down to luck - not down to the productivity of the advisor. How do you measure the success of a Community Welfare Officer - is it the number of cases he sees (which creates an incentive to rush through cases, regardless of the result), or how much/little welfare they provide? The same issues apply to many knowledge worker roles in the privae sector. In much of the public sector, it is effectively impossible to quantitatively measure productivity. In the UK, several chief constables recently announced publicly that they have decided to ignore Govt instructions about achieving specific targets and they are moving back towards empowering their officers on the street to deliver good policing.



Indeed, this kind of polarisation of 'them and us' is generally unhelpful. Just as the kind of polarisation of public vs private as frequently seen on this thread and others on AAM is unhelpful.

Public sector and private sector aren't different worlds. Public sector staff and private sector staff aren't different races or cultures. They are all just people. People move to/from both sectors frequently. People generally do their best to do a decent day's work for a decent day's pay.

Yes, there are skivers on both sides of fence. Yes, there are great managers and bad managers on both sides of the fence. Trying to create division through polarised arguments will not solve any of the many problems that exist in both the public and private sectors.

I work in the public sector, and my administrator has been calling and emailing weekly the venue that hosted an event for us last year. We've been telling them each week that we owe them €4.5k and we'd like a valid invoice so we can pay this money. The great, competitive private sector business hasn't been able to produce a correct invoice in 4 months, despite the fact that we've given them the damn figures repeatedly.

We're all consumers, and we all come up against examples of great service and terrible service in both the public and private sectors. No-one has a monopoly on efficiency or inefficiency.

Those who like to believe the Daily Mail rants about overpaid and underworked public servants might like to check out some of the facts and conclusions from the recent OECD report on the Irish public services - see - Here's a few (admittedly selective) quotes;

etc etc etc

Now that is a good post. Well done and well said.
 
I have worked for both the private and public sector.

With the arrival of the Celtic Tiger public sector jobs lost their attractiveness.

When the Celtic Tiger came people left the public sector in droves to take advantage of the well paid private sector jobs, with regular bonuses and attractive perks.
In 1998 I eventually finished college as a mature student and went for numerous interviews, I got offered a temporary job with the the Health Board, which I took.
I took the low paid clerical officer job in 1998, other college friends took well paid jobs in the computing industry they were awarded huge bonuses, shares etc.
Now some of those people are unemployed.

I took a gamble with High Paid unsecure job versus lowpaid secure job. As somebody who remembered the last 1980s early 1990s and the bad times I went for job security. That's all it was. The jobs were open to all.

I and my admin colleagues happen to do a great job. Unfortunately we are not the policy makers. The DEPT of Health/Mary Harney have responsibility for policy decisions.

The HSE needs admin workers, I know that Doctors, Nurses and Clinical Specialists are the angels of the HSE, but these people need support from a wide range of admin workers.

Who else makes
Hospital Appointments
Deals with refunds under the Drugs Payment Scheme,
Awards Medical Cards
Long Term Illness Cards
European Health Insurance Cards
Deals with Patient Accounts
Hospital Accounts
Purchasing Equipment,
Hardship Medicines,
Aids and Applicances such as special shoes, wigs for cancer patients, oxygen equipment etc,
register births, deaths, marriages,
Social Inclusion for Homeless, disadvantaged etc

And the support staff to deal with all HSE depts such as
Payroll
IT Specialists
HR


The budget overruns in the HSE are due to increased applications for demand led schemes such as the Drugs Payment Scheme and the Medical Card Scheme and not due to Clerical staff wasting money.
 
Also some talk that the next 2.5% of 2016 in September might be delayed till ater on in the year. So I would say its bad at the moment
 
People forget that when the population increases, and the economy is busy it puts a greater demand for public services. As more people become unemployed it will also put a great demand on different public services. So cutting public sector staff, is going to have direct effect on that.

At the same time there's definitely inefficiencies across the public sector and there's lots of productivity improvements that can be done. There's no denying that.
 
People forget that when the population increases, and the economy is busy it puts a greater demand for public services. As more people become unemployed it will also put a great demand on different public services.

A valid point, but a correlation that should work both ways.

I'd be interested to know if the reduction in unemployment levels over the last decade or more led to a corresponding reduction in staffing levels to handle the reduced demand, or did it stay at the same level, or indeed increase?
 
Theres a bigger picture.

The Public sector is huge and varied. You could be taking about an increase in Firemen or a increase in people working in social security. So people need to be specific about they are talking about. Also you had a huge immigration of people who needed social welfare, and other supports from the state. When people complain about the size of the public sector, I wonder what do they expect. You can't have population growth and expect that to have no impact on public sector services. Also theres been under investment for decades in many areas. Look at the schools for example. Some schools have been in prefabs for 30yrs. What about the increases in numbers in schools. How are you going to decrease staff there. Go back to large class sizes? Have class sizes of 50?

I'm in the public sector, though only for a couple of years. But I was staggered by the volume of non - Irish in the system. When people complain about increase. Also where I am there hasn't been a significant increase in staffing in many years, and it has been constantly understaffed. Of the little increases in staff a high % was due to decentralisation in a new location creating new roles. Even then my section has about 60% of the staff it needs. The end result is that that some projects take forever to complete, and theres delays in some services. You can only do so much with finite resources. Thats not to say things couldn't be improved and existing resources used better.

Thats only my tiny section of it. I'm sure theres a wide variety of different experiences depending what section you are talking about.
 
aircobra19, would you envisage any scenarion / situation / circumstances where there wouldn't be great or greater demand for public services? It seems that no matter what is happening there is always an excuse for maintaining the status quo or increasing staffing levels. What about the productivity increases from wage agreements etc.
 
At the same time there's definitely inefficiencies across the public sector and there's lots of productivity improvements that can be done. There's no denying that.
Indeed there are, just like the many inefficiencies and room for lost of productivity improvements in the private sector.
 
aircobra19, would you envisage any scenarion / situation / circumstances where there wouldn't be great or greater demand for public services? It seems that no matter what is happening there is always an excuse for maintaining the status quo or increasing staffing levels. What about the productivity increases from wage agreements etc.

Without thinking about it seriously. Population decrease, mass emmigration etc. Change of govt policy, since thats what really drives the public sector. Stricter controls on immigration, explusion of those who shouldn't be here. Stop all the social welfare. Make all health services private, everyone has to have insurance etc.

Regarding productivity increases from wage agreements. You'd have to look at each section. As some are understaffed and what can you expect there. Each section is different. Some will define easy goals and them meet them. Same thing happens in the prvate sector. How can you fire people who consistently don't come up to standard, when the union will go on strike over nothing?
 
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