Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q

  • Thread starter Albert Rosenfield
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Re: Bigotry

I agree entirely Marie. Furthermore, it was envisaged in the Good Friday agreement that arms from terrorist organizations would not only be decommissioned, but be seen to be decommissioned. One terrorist organization imported much more arms and explosives than the others. Over to you, Asimov.
 
Re: Bigotry

Look here, everything Asimov says is more or less true. My issue with Asi is that he is so terribly one sided.

But I really must scotch this preposterous "Paisley is a nice man" theme. Paisley is pure evil. His darkest moment was in orchestrating and dominating the Loyalist strike of 1974. Totally illegal, pure blackmail and implemented by bullyboy tactics ,it forced the British Government to postpone power sharing for at least 30 years and maybe for ever.

Make no mistake Paisley will NEVER EVER be First Minister of NI.

Do southerners feel they are being sort of broad minded in saying nice things about this demagogue. He is recognised the world over as the caricature of sectarian biggoted hatred and has been largely instrumental in giving the international community the broad impression that it is the Catholics who are the most injured party. This is a huge disservice to the bulk of the Protectant people in NI.
 
1969, hooliganism or people power?

As a QUB undergraduate I had seen the well meaning CR movement degenerate into a hooligan orgy of violence and destruction.
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Madonna, it has historically been the pattern in any deeply motivated mass public protest that if a cry for justice is ignored - or put down by violence - then violence may well be the response.

It has been so all round the world...from the French Revolution, to The Russian Revolution, to demonstrations of People Power in The Phillipines and Eastern Europe, and most recently in Ukraine (where violence has - so far - been narrowly been avoided because the State has had to give in to the people).

People march occasionally in the Republic of Ireland too...about issues like the Iraq war for instance...and even if it gets them nowhere they may feel better about themselves for having 'done something'. They can then return to their comfortable homes and everyday lives and move on.

As you well know, the minority population of NI had a legitimate and just cause to march...and their marches were peaceful. Those marches were put down by violence. We've all seen the old black and white TV images of Civil Rights marchers being batoned by B Specials.

The problem was though, unlike the marching middle classes of Dublin, the people of west Belfast couldn't just go home, stick a band-aid on their sore heads and just forget all about it. They were living with blatant State backed sectarian discrimination every day, in housing, jobs, schooling, voting....the lot.

If Terence O'Neill had been allowed to make a few cursory concessions to the Civil Rights leaders as he seemed about to, maybe the whole of what happened could have been avoided. But Paisley wouldn't allow the reformers a chance to show some generosity...his motto was 'Not an Inch' and he led the revolt that threw the liberal O'Neill out of power.
The result was the massive polarisation of the society.
The formation of the Provos and renewed demands for a United Ireland followed.


The rioting that happened in Belfast in 1969 may well be classed as hooliganism by you.
There is no such thing as peaceful, well behaved rioting. Thats the nature of the beast.
None of it should ever have happened, or would have happened...if there was justice in the society.

Make no mistake if the underclasses of the Dublin surburbs were ever to nightly riot and pillage O'Connell Street the Southern security forces would righlty be ordered to ruthlessly suppress the disorder.
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Quite.
Would that include shooting innocent children in their beds? Would that be a justifiable, even handed or measured response to civil disorder?
 
Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?

QUOTE :
Would that include shooting innocent children in their beds? Would that be a justifiable, even handed or measured response to civil disorder?

No, killing civilians is never justifiable. By far, far the greatest number of civilians killed in Northern Ireland during the "troubles" was by republican terrorists ie the Provisional IRA and INLA.

There were some policemen killed by republicans in N.Ireland in the years prior to 1969, do not forget that. If there were widespread riots in O'Connell St., Dublin, as someone said, what would the Irish govt. have done? Do not forget that DeValera hung some IRA volunteer in the early forties.

We would ALL have been far better off without the IRA.
 
Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?

By far, far the greatest number of civilians killed in Northern Ireland during the "troubles" was by republican terrorists ie the Provisional IRA and INLA.
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If you insist on counting corpses then have a look at this site.

The thing that leaps out at me from the bar graph is that Loyalist paramilitaries and British Forces killed more civilians than the IRA. You said "civilians" in your quote...and on that count you were wrong.

You'll also notice that way more Catholics died in the troubles than Protestants.

And incidentally...the biggest number of civilian deaths in the troubles in a single incident (before Omagh) was when 26 civilians were killed by the UVF when they planted 3 simultaneous car bombs in Parnell Square, Talbot Street and South Leinster Street, Dublin on 17 May 1974.

Where does that get us? Statistics can be used to show anything.
The IRA are willing to take their weapons out of circulation permaneantly, and the only real obstacle in the way now is Ian Paisley.

There were some policemen killed by republicans in N.Ireland in the years prior to 1969, do not forget that.
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The IRA were nothing pre 1969 because they didn't have the widespread support of the people before 1969. They later gained that support thanks to state oppression of the people.

We would ALL have been far better off without the IRA.
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I think we can agree on that...probably even Gerry Adams and many members of the IRA would agree too.
Lets do away with it...they are ready to go.
 
Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?

You will notice from even your own web site that Republicans killed far more people than everyone else put together.
But as you say, where does that get us? Statistics can be used to show anything.

Quote The IRA are willing to take their weapons out of circulation permanently, and the only real obstacle in the way now is Ian Paisley.

No, the only real obstacle to peace is the IRA. If they wanted to decommission, they would. Even if they were to be seen to do a small amount of decommissioning, it would be a great help. Paisley is speaking for the man in the street : most people in N. Ireland, Rep of Ireland, UK and US as revealed in polls and declared by their elected politicians ) want the IRA to be seen to decommission. It is not necessary even to have public decommissioning, or even video decommissioning : just photos will do. But will the IRA oblige ?





The IRA were nothing pre 1969 because they didn't have the widespread support of the people before 1969.
There were policemen killed pre 1969. The IRA were more than nothing pre 1969, otherwise DeValera would not have hanged one of them in the forties. As regards "widespread support of the people", the IRA never had that, and (hopefully) never will. The Irish people are not that stupid.
You cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
 
Re: 1969, hooliganism or people power?

If they wanted to decommission, they would. Even if they were to be seen to do a small amount of decommissioning, it would be a great help.
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I don't think Dr.Paisley agrees with you Rabbit. When the recent talks broke down there was a hint from the media that the IRA were going to go ahead anyhow with their decommissioning. Paisley immediately put out a statement warning the IRA not to do so. READ>>
So we now have the bizarre situation where the IRA are ready and willing to do more decommissioning than even you ask, but the Reverend Ian has said NO!! NEVER!!
As regards "widespread support of the people",the IRA never had that, and (hopefully) never will.
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They certainly had it in West Belfast in the early seventies...when they were growing. People there saw the IRA as the only thing standing between them and total extermination.

Any guerilla force needs the aid and assistance of the people just to exist. Without them it is useless. The Brits know that very well, it was how they stamped on the Malay Crisis in the 50's.
You ought to read some Che Guevarra.
 
Re: Extermination threat

They certainly had it in West Belfast in the early seventies...when they were growing. People there saw the IRA as the only thing standing between them and total extermination.
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Steady on, Asimov. As I stated before I was a QUB undergrad in 1969-72. It might be hard for southerners to believe but I can recall that the signs in the students' union were only in English. These days QUB is a majority Catholic uni and the signs are now wholly as gaelige. Proper order, mind you I haven't a clue how to get around the place. My point is that this is far from extermination, but perhaps Asi is right, it is the IRA we have to thank for that.
 
Re: Extermination threat

Yes, I believe the IRA served a purpose. If they hadn't reformed by 1970 - the process of ethnic cleansing was already well under way. They put a halt to it.

I still remember the mass exodus of Catholic refugees from West Belfast by late summer of 1969.

Catholics had to get off their knees and fight for survival.
Radicalisation into a Nationalist/Republican movement followed later.

Rather like whats happening in Darfur at the moment.
 
Re: Extermination threat

Asi, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, Darfur, total extermination, ethnic cleansing...get a grip! The capacity of the Northern RC to identify their plight with infinitely worse scenarios never ceases to amaze. In 1969, unemployment in RC working class Belfast was higher than in Protestant areas but considerably lower than in the South. Local authority voting was restricted to property owners which tended to favour Protestants. Other than that I am struggling to see the huge injustices/oppression - absolutely nothing to justify the way OTT 30 year terrorist onslaught.
 
Re: Extermination threat

Madonna, man does not live by bread alone. Injustice and discrimination will always create conflict, wherever it occurs.

You've attempted to minimise the plight of the people in 1969 on more than one occasion now, portraying the inevitable eruption of conflict as simply malicious and unreasonable.

Patently you are ill equipped to dismiss the sufferring of the Catholic population of NI through the decades leading up to 1969. I'm damn sure you didn't live in the slum ghettoes of Unity Flats or Divis Street, or get burned out of your home in Bombay Street that August night.
Very few kids from those neighbourhoods ever managed to get into Queens University in 1969.

It was trendy then though, wasn't it, for a silver-spoon elitist to be seen out throwing stones - probably made you feel part of the greater student protest movement around europe at the time.
No doubt it impressed the girlies when you regaled them about it down the Students Union Bar later.
 
Re: Extermination threat

Have to agree with you there Madonna. Asimov reminds me of his ally "Comical Ali" in Baghdad , such is his variation of the truth. The IRA never had widespread support in IRELAND or anywhere else. It would not need to be a terrorist group if there was. Do not forget many, many more Irishmen choose to fight in British uniforms than in the IRA. When the 1916 "heros" came out of the GPO in Dublin, they were boood and insulted by the locals. DeValera executed an IRA man in prison in the 40's. Most people still do not support the IRA, despite the nationalist revisionist history being taught by the christian brothers, despite the the Sinn Fein propoganda machine and RTE.


Asimov says Paisley does not want decommissioning. What rubbish. Of course he wants decommissioning, like everyone else except Sinn Fein / IRA. The IRA has used its semtex and guns to kill his friends, parishoners and constituents. What an insult to say he does not want decommissioning. We all want it, and we all want PROOF of it...just photos will do.

The protestants are now the disadvantaged class in N. Ireland. There is reverse job discrimination, and you only have to look at the situation in Queens ( where all the signs are in Irish only etc etc ) to realise the North is becomming an increasingly cold house for protestants. This is what Sinn Fein wants, and no wonder most young prods go to uni. in Britain. Something to do with parity of esteem?

Asimov, given your support for the bank robbers in Adare, do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?
 
Re: How wrong can you be

Very few kids from those neighbourhoods ever managed to get into Queens University in 1969.
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I was from one of those neighbourhoods - and this is the point, by 1969 the 1949 UK Education Act, which greatly increased access to Grammar Schools for working class people, applied equally to Catholics. The Welfare State greatly favoured the large families of the Catholic working class. This is the great travesty, the Labour revolution in the UK vastly enhanced the prospects and conditions of working class Catholics, way way beyond what pertained in the South.

But as you say Asi, man does not live by bread alone. The great bulk of Catholics in the mid sixties recognised how much improvd their conditions were. But they still resented the perceived but greatly exaggerated sense of second class citizenship and for some mad reason they hankered after the poverty of a United Ireland - I remember being taught rebel songs in primary school.

Nonetheless the greatly improved material conditions had relegated the IRA to a seeming irrelevance. That was unitil their opportunity arrived - within several short months of a naive student protest, in keeping with the times, the IRA had transformed an otherwise peaceful society into a cauldron of terrorist violence and civil disorder.
 
Re: Extermination threat

When the 1916 "heros" came out of the GPO in Dublin, they were boood and insulted by the locals.
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Yes, and then the Brits stupidly executed them and turned public opinion right around. The dignity of men like Connolly, strapped to a chair to face the firing squad, brought overwhelming public support to the IRA.

Your use of quotation marks around the word "heros"(sic) is obviously intended as an insult to the Irish people. Those men drafted the Declaration of Independance and were among the founding fathers of this state. This country would still be under British control were it not for them.

and DeValera executed an IRA man in prison in the 40's.
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You keep harping on at this. So bloody what? The pro and anti treatyists fought a civil war and there was no love lost on either side. What of it. If Dev had his way we'd still be fighting a guerilla war in a British occupied Ireland. He was hardly one of yours!

Most people still do not support the IRA, despite the nationalist revisionist history being taught by the christian brothers, despite the the Sinn Fein propoganda machine and RTE.
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More Bigotry. :lol It gets old.

What an insult to say he does not want decommissioning. We all want it, and we all want PROOF of it...just photos will do.
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Paisley doesn't just want decommissioning, he expects humiliation and surrender. The photos thing is just his attempt to raise the bar yet again because he sees his bluff being called. Anything to avoid power sharing with Catholics or Republicans.

The protestants are now the disadvantaged class in N. Ireland.
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Why? Can't compete on a level playing field? :lol
Queens ( where all the signs are in Irish only etc etc )
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Tripe. But good for a laugh :lol
to realise the North is becomming an increasingly cold house for protestants.
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Brrrr.... :lol

given your support for the bank robbers in Adare, do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?
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Do you think the Prods did it?
Not smart enough!! :lol
 
Re: Extermination threat

within several short months of a naive student protest, in keeping with the times, the IRA had transformed an otherwise peaceful society into a cauldron of terrorist violence and civil disorder.
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Or British mismanagement and Protestant intransigence had created another post colonial Frankensteins monster.
Its all just a matter of perspective, isn't it.

But there is a certain inevitable pattern in all ex British territories.
 
Re: Extermination threat

I tend to view threads on Letting Off Steam rather than contribute, I find miscellaneous non finance questions more interesting. However, I would recommend that the AAM members read (if you haven't read already) the book by Professor Joe Lee "Ireland 1912-1985" which gives a measured and well thought out analysis of the events leading up to the troubles. It is one of the few books on modern Irish history which tends to change peoples attitudes, or at least give them pause to reflect on their current position, whatever that is at the time.
 
Re: Extermination threat

When the 1916 "hero's" came out of the GPO in Dublin, they were boood and insulted by the locals.
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Yes, and then the Brits stupidly executed them and turned public opinion right around.

Never mind what the Brits done after, the overwhelming sentiment of the Irish people was against the IRA at that time. Even after the executions, overall sentiment was not as pro-IRA as your teachers would have had you believe.

Your use of quotation marks around the word "hero's"(sic) is obviously intended as an insult to the Irish people.

I put emphasized the word heroes because they are your heroes, not mine and not the heroes of most Irish people at the time. Far, far more families had relations fighting in British uniforms in WW1 at the time than were in the IRA.
Many people were proud to be part of the union with Britain.


" DeValera executed an IRA man in prison in the 40's."
You keep harping on at this. So bloody what? The pro and anti treatyists fought a civil war and there was no love lost on either side. What of it. If Dev had his way we'd still be fighting a guerrilla war in a British occupied Ireland. He was hardly one of yours!

II was not the Brits or the Northern Prods executing IRA men in the 1940's. Why did you not riot against the Dublin govt. then ? You have rioted against the Northern authorities for less.

Most people still do not support the IRA, despite the nationalist revisionist history being taught by the Christian brothers, despite the the Sinn Fein propaganda machine and RTE.
More Bigotry. It gets old.

The truth always hurts.



What an insult to say he (Paisley) does not want decommissioning. We all want it, and we all want PROOF of it...just photos will do.

Paisley doesn't just want decommissioning, he expects humiliation and surrender. The photos thing is just his attempt to raise the bar yet again because he sees his bluff being called. Anything to avoid power sharing with Catholics or Republicans.

Photos are actually lowering the bar : he and the Irish people could want video proof instead. He said he will share power with republicans , once they are seen to have decommissioned. Incidentally, the political parties south of the border have said the same thing, ie they will not share power with Sinn Fein without decommissioning.






When I asked Given your support for the bank robbers in Adare, do you condemn the robbers in Belfast last Monday night? Or does it depend on their political / party allegiance ?

You (Asimov) replied: Do you think the Prods did it?
Not smart enough!!

Can you answer the question Asimov ? Instead of belittling the prods as usual? We know how they would be treated in a united Ireland if that were to happen , which it will not at least not in our lifetime. By the way, perhaps the reason the prods did not do it has nothing to do with smartness, it has probably had more to do with integrity and honesty !
 
Re: Extermination threat

That's it Asimov. If you can't agree with someone else then just call them names and refuse to debate with them. Pretty childish.
 
Re: Saved from Extermination

August 15th 1969 was a day I won't forget. At Assumption Day Mass (I went then!) the priest announced the staggering news that the RUC had killed 4 Catholics the night before and that Protestant mobs were rampaging through Catholic streets. The day that followed saw a stream of "regugee" traffic to the relative safety of Andytown, where I lived.

It could be argued that left unchecked the Protestant backlash would have led to carnage of Bosnian proportions. I wasn't really frightened and in the event the situation was brought very quickly under control - albeit we had 30 more years of "Troubles".

Asimov probably agrees with me so far but here is where we depart. Asi believes that the Catholic population escaped genocide because of the newborn Provisional IRA, which somewhat contradicts his correct assertion that they were largely irrelevant at that time.

My contention, and I was there in the middle of it, is that it was the very rapid deployment of the British Army which did save the Catholic population from a much greater catastrophe. It is interesting to speculate that if the IRA had been up to full speed the intervention of the BA would have been much more problematical and the resultant "civil" war would have wreaked havoc in cathoilc communities.

As it happened, with an emasculated IRA, the Catholic community welcomed the BA as saviours.

But this was not in the Republican script. In early 1970, completely out of the blue, 3 British soldiers were murdered on the outskirts of Belfast. The Provos denied it for the whole community was shocked. However, the Brits knew who did it. There followed the Falls curfew and arms search. The honeymoon between the RC population and the BA was well and truly over and the rest is history.
 
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