Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q

[Albert Rosenfield]

Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q

Deja-vu feeling all over again.

About 1 week ago they report that the IRA or some part of it is all set to destroy all their weapons and have it witnessed by someone from the loyalists or at least provide photos of it. All their weapons. Forever. End of story.

Then as the days progress it seems that that wasn't quite what they said. Then it looks like there is no way they will provide a photo. Then it looks like they won't do any of it. At all.

A year or so ago, it was Gerry Adams saying something extremely clearly, then saying he was misunderstood, then saying it was never the case at all.

Each time it looks like the 'politicians' are all set to do the right thing, clear the boards and bring the whole ugly mess too an end, and then a few days later apparently there is no way they would do such a thing as long as those other guys are on the other side.

South Africa got over the instutionalised apartheid thing reasonably quickly. I remember thinking in the '80s that this was never going to go away, but it did. Why can't the 'politicians' get their act together, say the words, shake hands, do the deal and let the police get on with their job of going after the gougers and gangsters cowering under the cover of the paramilitary title ?

 

[Marie]

Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost complete&q

It was complete to all intents and purposes until a certain Reverend went public with foaming-at-the-mouth tribism, sectarianism and ad hominem provocations and insults.

Newspapers in the UK - weary of trying to report on Iraq against censorhip of their reportage - have lighted, not on Paisley's rabid attacks, but on Gerry Adam's statement that the deal was to decomission, not to be humiliated.

There is a monograph written in the 1930's by the anthropologist Walter Cannon who found that ostracisation and scapegoating by the tribe lead to illness and frequently, the death, of the individual. These findings - about the destructivity of shaming attacks and humiliation - are supported by a number of more recent studies.

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple

It was complete to all intents and purposes until a certain Reverend went public with foaming-at-the-mouth tribism, sectarianism and ad hominem provocations and insults.

Oh blame one person with swiping over the top statements. Despite all the bad press and propoganda against him, most people see the IRA's refusal to decommission as the obstacle to peace, not Paisley.

Newspapers in the UK - weary of trying to report on Iraq against censorhip of their reportage - have lighted, not on Paisley's rabid attacks, but on Gerry Adam's statement that the deal was to decomission, not to be humiliated.

First of all, Newspapers in the UK are not censored, Marie. If you want to see what censorship is, go to any of the Arab countries where there is no opposition political party, or look at Saddams history in Iraq. If Sinn Fein/ IRA really want to decommission, why do they not do this ? Are they really that worried about their humiliation - look at the humiliation they caused by their decades of bombing and shooting. Which would you prefer be - an anonymous IRA person or someone walking around with one leg, severe burns , and/ or having lost loved ones etc.


There is a monograph written in the 1930's by the anthropologist Walter Cannon who found that ostracisation and scapegoating by the tribe lead to illness and frequently, the death, of the individual. These findings - about the destructivity of shaming attacks and humiliation - are supported by a number of more recent studies.


Marie, what are you on? If "shaming attacks and humiliation" are so destructive, is this what the provos are going to use now instead of semtex and the armalite? I think you are claiming they are afraid of shaming attacks and retaliation ! This is a bit rich after your attack on Paisley, which in itself is not really that surprising after Pat "the provo" Kennys ultra soft and one sided interview with Gerry Adams on the Late Late last night.

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple

Sorry correct bold print quotation below:

It was complete to all intents and purposes until a certain Reverend went public with foaming-at-the-mouth tribism, sectarianism and ad hominem provocations and insults.

Oh blame one person with swiping over the top statements. Despite all the bad press and propoganda against him, most people see the IRA's refusal to decommission as the obstacle to peace, not Paisley.


Newspapers in the UK - weary of trying to report on Iraq against censorhip of their reportage - have lighted, not on Paisley's rabid attacks, but on Gerry Adam's statement that the deal was to decomission, not to be humiliated.

First of all, Newspapers in the UK are not censored, Marie. If you want to see what censorship is, go to any of the Arab countries where there is no opposition political party, or look at Saddams history in Iraq. If Sinn Fein/ IRA really want to decommission, why do they not do this ? Are they really that worried about their humiliation - look at the humiliation they caused by their decades of bombing and shooting. Which would you prefer be - an anonymous IRA person or someone walking around with one leg, severe burns , and/ or having lost loved ones etc.


There is a monograph written in the 1930's by the anthropologist Walter Cannon who found that ostracisation and scapegoating by the tribe lead to illness and frequently, the death, of the individual. These findings - about the destructivity of shaming attacks and humiliation - are supported by a number of more recent studies.

Marie, what are you on? If "shaming attacks and humiliation" are so destructive, is this what the provos are going to use now instead of semtex and the armalite? I think you are claiming they are afraid of shaming attacks and retaliation ! This is a bit rich after your attack on Paisley, which in itself is not really that surprising after Pat "the provo" Kennys ultra soft and one sided interview with Gerry Adams on the Late Late last night.

 

[Marie]

Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple

Then as the days progress it seems that that wasn't quite what they said. Then it looks like there is no way they will provide a photo. Then it looks like they won't do any of it. At all.

Rabbit - the above excerpt from the original post is the point to which I responded, and which I was interested to debate.

I am not sure you wish to debate as you immediately attribute my point of view to either being "on" something, or "like" Pat Kenny and then declare the culpability of "the IRA".

To your remark contradicting that there is censorship, all journalists were "embedded" in army base camps from the beginning of the "war" in Iraq. All communications and reports were examined before transmission. This situation continues now and on BBC, ITV and Channel 4 coverage of Iraq reports from foreign correspondents are prefaced with "The following report may have been censored".

I left Ireland in 1971 and have lived in the UK since. I am not pro-IRA and/or anti-British.

It is remarkable - given the current focus on, and new laws pertaining to, incitement - that Reverend Paisley has been so widely and so receptively reported.

Sinn Fein had agreed to presence of international weapons inspectors. That was all agreed with General De Chastelain (? I may have spelled his name incorrectly) and the Unionist side. As far as I know the making of photographic evidence for presentation to the governments of the Republic and UK would have been an integral part of this.

My understanding of Reverend Paisley's incitement to hatred and his attack on this progress was that Paisley wished to be present at the actual event......not he alone but a number of people from his contingent.......to humiliate (his words) the murdering scum (his words).

If you can present anything constructive about Reverend Paisley's position I look forward to hearing it. However the point is not answered by indicating past horrors and violence.

It is that very past which this entire peace process is designed to heal. My view is that that healing is not facilitated by inflamatory language and unreasonable demands.

 

[Asimov]

Paisley

Hi Rabbit.
You may look on Paisley as just another democrat, frustrated by IRA intransigence, but I think your view is blinkered, unfortunately.

I grew up as a Catholic in Belfast, a child of The Troubles.
As a ten year old, I watched Paisley on TV almost every night - browbeating Gerry Fitt or some other moderate nationalist representative into submission, roaring and ranting, spewing anti catholic rhetoric - I was afraid of him! He looked, and sounded scary to me.
I remember wondering why he hated us so much, and why he used words like 'Papists' and 'Popery' when he referred to catholics. This was 1969, the IRA was a defunct organisation at the time in NI. The issues of the day were Civil Rights ones. Catholics were marching for basic freedoms - such as a vote.

I didn't understand any of that...all I knew was there was a bad man on TV who called me and my family bad names.

Little did I know what the future held in store.

All through the conflict that man has been there, sometimes in the vanguard of hate, but always in the background amid the static. As a teenager I no longer feared him as I had when I was a child, instead I despised him and all he stood for.

Nowadays I look at that dried up old fool, and all I see is a pathetic throwback to a bygone era. A political and cultural dinosaur who drags everything around him down into the dirt. But occasionally you still see a flash of the old bigot unleashed - as we did when he savaged some journalist on TV last week.

Sure, the IRA were wromg in much of what they've done...but not all. Unfortunately they came to exist because of men like Paisley, and Paisley was no prude when it came to flashing a gun barrel, or consorting with a terrorist if he felt the occasion called for it.

You think of him as a Democrat, and the IRA as muderers.
I saw him - still see him - as prepared to use democracy only as long as he calls on a guarenteed majority. If the majority wavers he pulls out the gun...just as quick as Gerry Adams ever might have. His is not democracy with concensus...it is the tyranny of a deeply bigotted majority.

So before you sing the praises of Ian Paisley, spare a thought for the damage he has done in splitting apart a divided community.

Paisley as bigot: www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp

On the subject of photographs and IRA decommissioning...Paisley has never seen a photo of God, yet he believes in Him.
Same principle.

 

[Madonna]

Re: Paisley

That was good stuff Asimov.

It still sticks in the craw though that a Government Minister could be in bed with the IRA. As an absolute minimum the IRA must make that clear statement to its volunteers to back off the old kneecapping.

We would still be left with a very unsatisfactory situation. The IRA are illegal on both sides of the border. Ask any constitutional party what they think of the IRA and I hope it would be that they are an illegal paramilitary force which has no place in a democracy.

We seem at best to be heading to a position in NI where the Deputy First Minister's view would be "The IRA are wonderful folk who have achieved so much by their heroic deeds. They should not be illegal, we find that law unacceptable They are currently on gardening leave as we try and get this show on the road but they haven't gone away you know." That to me is wholy unacceptable. The IRA should be disbanded, humiliated and disowned by anyone who wishes to hold executive office in a democracy.

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Paisley

Well said Madonna. What has the IRA got to hide? Why will they not allow a few photo or other proof of decommissioning? That is all Paisley and all right thinking democrats want. When some loyalists decomissioned a number of years ago, I remember seeing the guns being sawn up and destroyed on the television, in front of my eyes. There is no real proof the provos have destroyed a single gun or a single ounce of semtex yet , have they? That Canadian gereral may just have seen a single bullet being destroyed. A democracy cannot deal with a private army, which does not even recognize the Irish army / state. Look what they done to Jerry McCabe : he was not the first member of the Irish security forces killed by the provos.

As regards the previous posters (Asimov) rantings against Paisley and even his community..I believe this is real incitement to hatred.
Much of what Asimov said was patently untrue. I know some catholics in the north who vote for Dr. Paisley. It is a pity there is so much propaganda against him in the south. Look at the election results from Rathlin island, a community mixed 50 / 50 , and yet where Paisley got most of the votes. I , for one, would rather trust Paisleys 2004 style of democracy than the provos / Sinn Fein. I am not saying Paisley or the Nothern system was correct or perfect in the 50's/60's- far from it. Do not forget however, the IRA was not completely inactive in the decades preceding the troubles/1969.

 

[Asimov]

Re: Paisley

When some loyalists decomissioned a number of years ago, I remember seeing the guns being sawn up and destroyed on the television, in front of my eyes.

Ahh yes...that was the LVF.
They declared a ceasefire and handed over a few rusty small arms to be chopped up.
Unfortunately that wasn't the end of their story.

"Despite its "ceasefire" the LVF continued its sectarian murder campaign under the guise of the Red Hand Defenders, a badge of convenience used also by the UDA.

When the LVF was linked to the murder of journalist Martin O' Hagan at the end of September 2001, the Secretary of State was moved to declare on 12th October that the government no longer recognised their ceasefire."[broken link removed]

There is no real proof the provos have destroyed a single gun or a single ounce of semtex yet , have they? That Canadian gereral may just have seen a single bullet being destroyed.

"Of the IRA’s latest weapons act last week, General John de Chastelain said that the organisation had disposed of more than it ever had before. He did not give the quantity, but said that it included light, medium and heavy ordnance, and associated munitions.
Security sources suggest that the weapons decommissioned would have included significant amounts, if not all of the remaining Semtex, heavy assault rifles and missiles."
Times Online.

Where are the calls for UDA/UVF/LVF etc etc to hand in their weapons? This is all a bit one sided as far as I see.

Look what they done to Jerry McCabe : he was not the first member of the Irish security forces killed by the provos.

I believe those four should remain in prison. Thats my own view on it.

As regards the previous posters (Asimov) rantings against Paisley and even his community..I believe this is real incitement to hatred.

Rubbish.

I , for one, would rather trust Paisleys 2004 style of democracy than the provos / Sinn Fein.

Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. Paisley has plenty of support, as can be seen from his election results.
But so has Sinn Fein. Thats the reality...deal with it.

Paisley has a responsibity to everyone on this island to work to sort out this situation. But given his past performance I doubt he is motivated to do much to progress things. Progress toward power sharing with catholics/republicans is not on his agenda.

 

[Marie]

Paisley

If that progress had been maintained, if that deal had gone through a few days ago, who would Paisley be? What would he do? What - apart from this single issue for which he is internationally known - has Paisley to offer in terms of development as opposed to bigotry?

Look forward to the responses of those who feel Northern Ireland "wasn't that bad" in the 1950-60's up to the Civil Rights movement and Bernadette Devlin.

 

[purple]

Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple

Negotiations require good faith and the desire to find a settlement on the part of all concerned. Paisley has neither. He is not a democrat and while I'm not sure I'd agree with Asimov that the majority of his constituent is deeply bigoted, I would fully accept that paisley is and that democracy to him is a tool, not a value.
For the record, I have little more regard for Adams etc. but for fire and brimstone and good old fashioned tribal hatred you can't beat the would-be doctor.

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple

Paisley is willing to share power with Sinn Fein / IRA when the IRA decommissions some weapons, as verified by photos or some such means. THe US govt, as well as all other parties, want the provos to show the photos. Why do they not? They do not want peace, like Paisley and the rest of us do.

By the way, the LVF decommissioned more than a few rusty handguns. We have no real proof the IRA has even done that yet.

 

[Asimov]

Re: Did someone say "The Peace Process is almost comple

Paisley is willing to share power with Sinn Fein / IRA when the IRA decommissions some weapons,

It is my understanding that Paisley expects the decommissioning of ALL IRA weapons, not just some. Are you suggesting he'd be happy with a couple of Armalites and a handful of bullets?

verified by photos or some such means.

Verification is offerred already, through mutually appointed clerical witnesses and General De Chastelain. The photo ploy is Paisleys extra demand so that he can crow about his defeat of the IRA.

THe US govt, as well as all other parties, want the provos to show the photos.

No they don't! I haven't seen a single suggestion in any news report that the US government was recommending any such thing. Show us a link.

They do not want peace, like Paisley and the rest of us do.

Errr...there is peace. A ceasefire since 1996.

Paisley wants peace alright...just like he used to have...when the Catholic/Nationalist/Republican people of NI were subjugated and silenced. Thats his kind of peace.

By the way, the LVF decommissioned more than a few rusty handguns.

Sounds like you think the LVF are great lads!
They seem to have left themselves enough guns to go out later and murder Martin O'Hagan...not to mention a few of their fellow Loyalists.

Are you a Loyalist Paramilitary sympathiser? You certainly seem to consider their murders as being reasonable...only the IRA are holding things up. Are Loyalist murders OK by you? Do you want to see them continue? What about Loyalist weapons? Are you in favour of them being decommissioned too? When? How? Why aren't you demanding it? These people aren't even on ceasefire, never mind ready to discuss decommissioning! Why are you silent on this issue? Why harp on about the IRA? Lets hear what you'll do if your lads, the Loyalists won't hand in their guns and bombs?

Why hasn't Paisley been demanding to see the weapons of the Loyalist paramilitaries? The NI Chief Constable recently stated that something like 90% of all sectarian attacks in NI since the IRA ceasefire have been the work of Loyalists.

Personally, I'm amazed that Adams and McGuinness keep talking about IRA decommissioning while the loyalists weapons aren't even being discussed. If it was me up to me, I'd demand parrallel decomissioning from them. I don't accept the situation where Paisleys friends and brethren will be the only people in NI holding weapons and running private armies. Paisley might well decide to call on their help and support as he has done before.

I remember being brought down the Falls road in 1969 to see the aftermath of the Loyalist invasion of the lower Falls, whole streets and homes of impoverished Catholics which had been burned to the ground by protestant mobs from the Shankill. The IRA were villified afterward in their own neighbourhoods because they had done nothing to stop it. The truth was they had no weapons to use. That incident was the genesis of the modern IRA. What will stop it happening again? If loyalist paramilitaries think the people of the lower Falls are once more at their mercy...because the IRA have nothing to defend them with...but they still have THEIR guns. I want to see Loyalist Paramilitary decomissioning before this process moves one inch further.

 

[Madonna]

Re: The reality

Sorry, Asi,but you are missing the plot a little. Just a little bit of history correction first. 1969 saw an uprising from the catholic population - whether that was justified or not. By late August the situation was out of control - it had become a nightly recreation for teenage gangs from Anderstown and Ballymurphy to go down the Falls and riot and burn and loot. And then the balloon went up on the night of August 14th - the Protestant backlash. It wasn't all as one sided as you portray.

Roll forward - the real problem with your analogy Asi is that there isn't one single loyalist MLA and not a snowball's chance in Paisley's hellfire of a loyalist gunman or ex-gunman being in executive power, never mind Deputy First Minister. That is the huge difference. Even Jeffrey Donaldson has conceded that if the Provos break away and form dissident criminal groups that is a matter for the security forces.

What is crucially at issue is how can you have Government Ministers with connections to a private army which will not unambiguously disown criminality.

Paisley and the rest of us have come an awful long way when we are prepared to forget the past and let reconstructed terrorists and criminals into the seat of power.

It is up to SFIRA to convince us that this act of trust is justified.

 

[Asimov]

Re: The reality

Madonna, your representation of the Civil Rights movement as 'a Catholic uprising' and the burning of Bombay Street as some kind of natural backlash...are total hogwash and a stunning effort at historical revisionism.

Loyalists viewed the protests by Catholics for basic rights in NI as rebellion (just as you do) and used both their own personal private military resources and those of the State to put them down violently.

Anyone who is interested in the actual facts should visit this LINK and read the report of the Tribunal of Inquiry by The Hon. Mr. Justice Scarman, the Governor of Northern Ireland.
Dated April, 1972 it was his report to Parliament on behalf of the Government of Northern Ireland regarding Violence and Civil Disturbances in Northern Ireland in 1969.

I offer a short quote from it:

On the last day of March 1969 and during the month of April there occurred a number of explosions at electricity and water installations in the Province. We are satisfied that, though the perpetrators of these outrages cannot, with one exception, be identified, they were the work of Protestant extremists who were anxious to undermine confidence in the government of Captain O'Neill. At the time it was widely thought that the explosions were the work of the IRA, though it is quite clear now that they were not. On 28 April Captain O'Neill resigned and on 1 May was succeeded by Major Chichester Clark.

The Protestant backlash that Madonna refers to had started long before rioting broke out on the Falls road, and was part of a deliberate campaign by extreme loyalists...led by Ian Paisley...to destabilise Stormont and unseat a moderate who was prepared to accomodate reforms. Paisley later encouraged the burning out of Catholic homes in his speeches (the report contains full details).

I think it absolutely MONSTROUS that anyone portray the persecution of Catholic families in 1969 as somehow deserved.

As to the rest of your comments...no ex Loyalist gunmen as MLAs? What about David Irvine and his fellow PUP members! They've already sat in government with Paisley, with their weapons piled up behind them.
More hypocritical nonsense!!

 

[Rabbit]

Re: The reality

Asimov, You have been taught too much provo propoganda over the years, and worse you seem to believe it all. You seem to have such a bigoted , false grip on the whole situation I think it is very sad. There were many instances of nationalist terrorism in the years preceding 1969. I am not saying the administration in the North was right pre 69, but you seem to take a very one sided view on it all.

Paisley said he will share power with SinnFein / IRA when there is photos of arms decommissioning. It is Sinn Fein/IRA who are saying no.

Most of what you claim Paisley said is totally untrue.
I would not agree with some of what Paisley has said, but I do know one thing - he is anti-IRA more so than anti-Catholic.
Look at his constituency - some catholics there do vote for him ( I know some ). Look at the results for Rathlin island, which is 50/50 on religous lines.

Was it the Christian brothers that taught you all the "facts" about Paisley? You clearly do not live with both sides of the community in N.I., or look at both sides to an argument.

More than one Irish Priest has been convicted of working for the IRA over the years. There were dozens / hundreds of Jerry McCabes in the North...do you not think it is understandable the situation should have thrown up someone - an extremist - like Paisley. At least he has never killed anyone or planted semtex. Have you ?

 

[Asimov]

Bigotry

Rabbit, nobody had to teach me anything about Paisley or extremist Northern Protestantism...I witnessed it first hand, so did my family. I've been a victim of it, and so have my friends. My best friend in 1969, a nine year old boy, was shot dead in his bed by an RUC B-Special who was never brought to justice for the murder. Patrick Rooney...look it up.

Most of what I said about Paisley untrue? I'm only quoting him!...do YOU believe the Catholic Church is led by the Anti Christ? Paisley does, and has no qualms saying so...its on his own website...I provided the link.
You obviously can't be arsed to read it. Too challenging for you?

You keep harping about yokels in Rathlin voting for him. Give us the election results which back up your claim. You've already made one nonsense claim which you can't substantiate and you seem to have backed down when challenged to prove it.

Was it the Christian brothers that taught you all the "facts" about Paisley?

Something wrong with the Christian Brothers? I suppose Paisley has warned you they are dangerous 'papist plotters' who would rob NI from the pure protestant people?

More than one Irish Priest has been convicted of working for the IRA over the years.

If thats not bigotry I'd like to know what is.
You old BIGOT.

At least he has never killed anyone or planted semtex. Have you ?

Pathetic.
People like you and Paisley gave the IRA a reason to exist.

Tell your murdering friends and brethren in the UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF/Red Hand Commando's and all the rest- to hand in their guns and show us the photos. We're waiting.

 

[Madonna]

Re: Bigotry

Asimov, I used to believe all that crap.

And I still do!!

But I now realise that this is only one side of the story.

For example, is Paisley a bigot? you're darned right he is. But it was the RC church which insisted on keeping 40% of the NI population in segregated schools, it was the RC church which did its damnest to prevent intermarrying, it was the RC church which banned the playing of Protestant sports (such as soccer and rugby) in its schols. In fact the RC church has done and is continuing to do far, far more to divide the NI population than Paisley could ever do.

Citing from personal experience is a typical ruse by us Northerners to put Southern critics in their box. I mentioned before the hooligan gangs from A'town. I was that soldier!! Though I hasten to add I was always too timid to throw a petrol bomb!! As a QUB undergraduate I had seen the well meaning CR movement degenerate into a hooligan orgy of violence and destruction. Make no mistake if the underclasses of the Dublin surburbs (and they are far worse off than their RC counterparts in NI) were ever to nightly riot and pillage O'Connell Street the Southern security forces would righlty be ordered to ruthlessly suppress the disorder.

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Bigotry

Most of what I said about Paisley untrue? I'm only quoting him!...
Half of what you have "quoted" is untrue, and some of the rest is taken out of context. Do'nt get me wrong : I never voted for him or his party. However, I do not think he ever literally had blood on his hands like many members of Sinn Fein/ IRA.


You keep harping about yokels in Rathlin voting for him. Give us the election results which back up your claim.
Are you calling the catholics on Rathlin island "yokels" because they vote for Paisley? He has done more for them than Sinn Fein / IRA ever did. Look up the election results yourself. It is a well known fact, but I know you do not like to accept some facts that are not to your liking.


Something wrong with the Christian Brothers? I suppose Paisley has warned you they are dangerous 'papist plotters' who would rob NI from the pure protestant people?

No, Paisley never warned me about anything, let alone "papist plotters". As regards robbing NI from the pure protestant people, I know catholics who have met Paisley and who found him to be a pure gentleman. As regards the pure protestant people, he knows , and I know, that there are good and bad on both sides. Do you ? It does not seem so.


More than one Irish Priest has been convicted of working for the IRA over the years.
If thats not bigotry I'd like to know what is.

That is a fact. However most priests are perfectly good people, but there have been a few bad apples over the years.


You old BIGOT. I am not actually. I am quite neutral and fair minded. I have always voted for mainstream parties which are NOT loyalist / unionist. If I am a bigot, I can see how the like of Gerry McCabe gets shot by your heros, and I can see how people like me and the vast majority of Irish people will be treated if Sinn Fein/ IRA ever gets real total power in Ireland.

People like you and Paisley gave the IRA a reason to exist.
Tell your murdering friends and brethren in the UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF/Red Hand Commando's and all the rest- to hand in their guns and show us the photos. We're waiting.

I do not have any friends in UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF or Red hand commandos. I have never even met anyone, to the best of my knowledge, from any of these organisations. Some loyalists did hand in guns, which we all saw on television being cut up etc. I am in favour of ALL illegal guns being handed in. However, the provos have by far the biggest arsenal of weapons, especially non defensive weapons like heavy machine guns , semtex etc. Everyone expected them to hand in weapons long before now.

 

[Marie]

Bigotry

Is it possible to rescue yet another (sigh!) thread which is descending into stupidity, repitition and "ad hominem" comments and get back to a useful debate about the current state of the Northern Ireland peace process?

In general would we not expect that a cessation of hostilities ( wherever on this poor suffering planet it occurs, whenever historically it occurs.....that a "cessation of hostilities" would by definition involve both protagonists (publicly or privately, with or without the Kodak moment) and would be recognisable by the fact that both sides restrained from use of taunting, provocative and abusive name-calling?

Or perhaps some posters here (you know who you are there at the back......!) have a different definition of "peace process"? Do share!