People who don't realise how good they have it: ATC Vs DAA dispute.

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

The protest is relating to the suspension of employees and the introduction of new technology.

Of course the employer claims it's related to the pay dispute, but officially this strike is over the suspension without pay.

One more time.
(hint: I never mentioned why/why not they are striking).

If you are management and some of your workers (for whatever reason) stopped what they were doing and putting the lives of people at risk as you mention, would you not have suspended them?

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I don't think anyone is accusing them of putting lives at risk. Didn't exactly just stand up and walk out and leave planes flying around in the sky.

There is no excuse for the action and I certainly think that no strike clauses should be introduced into sectors like this. Same with the ESB etc.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I don't think anyone is accusing them of putting lives at risk. Didn't exactly just stand up and walk out and leave planes flying around in the sky.

Not directly, but if you have 4 or 5 people sitting around not doing their job, it's not, I would imagine, the correct atmosphere for the remaining controllers, who have critical jobs to operate in.

It seems also that even if they win this battle, they might well lose the
war

Today's IT

Speaking in the Dáil, Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey described the stoppages at Dublin, Cork and Shannon as “inexcusable” and “unforgivable”.

He also indicated that the introduction of a “no strike” clause for personnel providing essential services would have to be examined in the wake of the dispute.

 

[Latrade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

One more time.
(hint: I never mentioned why/why not they are striking).

If you are management and some of your workers (for whatever reason) stopped what they were doing and putting the lives of people at risk as you mention, would you not have suspended them?

As sunny said, no lives were at risk, they didn't just get up when planes were landing or taking off.

Also I answered that here. I'm not defending the action as I not only have my doubts about the extent of the effect of the new technology but also that it isn't a knock on of the pay dispute.

My power to suspend somebody is restricted by the circumstances under which they refuse to work and whether that refusal was reasonable given the circumstances (covered in other legislation such as health and safety). So to again answer the question: I don't know because we haven't been given the full circumstances as it appears to be only the employer's side that is given media coverage.

And my comment on the correct route was in relation to the current engagement with the LRC over the pay dispute. That is the correct route.

But note in most of my replies it's the old caveat of "as much as we know". We don't know, we can suspect and we can debate those suppositions, but what we don't do is use a biased press release by the employer as our soul judgement in this case.

 

[MrMan]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Its not a case of looking at a screen and concentrating. People seem to think that anyone can do the job if they are shown how. I am willing to bet that not one person that contributed to this thread would pass the recuitment process or even the vast majority of people on the site. It's not all about intelligence or ability. They have a rare skill set that is in demand.

Their pay and conditions are completely seperate to this anyway. I don't with what they are doing but I wouldn't belittle their work either. There have been numerous examples of ATC's being repsonsible for crashes and near misses. I have a stressful demanding job but nobody dies if I mess up (apart from me!)

I had a crack at it when I was 20/21 and there were something like 1600 going for 25 places. I got through the initial interview and onto the aptitude test which was extremely tough and I got through that to the last 50. I didn't get passed the next interview even though I had a 50/50 chance of making it. I was naive to the interview process and was quizzed on many items as random as how jet engines work.
I got called back the following year straight to the last 50 but in my mind I had moved on (I started to freak myself out about the responsibility side of things to be honest). I did the interview again and failed again.
I was chuffed to make it through the aptitude test simply because of the numbers involved, but i don't believe it is a job to be taken lightly.

 

[liaconn]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Take everything! You make it sound like they work for low pay and have dreadful conditions.

That's the gig. The good pay, good benefits, good conditions and job for life should be the trade off.
If people in the public service sector don't like it they should move to the private sector.

"

And if we didn't have the option to strike do you seriously think the Government wouldn't very quickly pull away any benefits, conditions and job security we have left????

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

And if we didn't have the option to strike do you seriously think the Government wouldn't very quickly pull away any benefits, conditions and job security we have left????

Unlikely because they still have to attract employees. People are not forced to join the public sector or remain there for life. If the public sector ever became so unattractive compared to the private sector, people simply wouldn't work there.

 

[liaconn]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Unlikely because they still have to attract employees. People are not forced to join the public sector or remain there for life. If the public sector ever became so unattractive compared to the private sector, people simply wouldn't work there.

So we'd have no public service, or one staffed only by people who couldn't get a job elsewhere?? Is that really what you want?

 

[Shawady]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Does anyone know why the ATC were not on strike last December when other Impact members held a one day strike?There must have been some reason why they made an exception then.

 

[z107]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

So we'd have no public service, or one staffed only by people who couldn't get a job elsewhere?? Is that really what you want?

Don't we have that already ?

Well we soon will have that anyway with all the cuts that are going to happen.

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

So we'd have no public service, or one staffed only by people who couldn't get a job elsewhere?? Is that really what you want?

Where did I say that? I was simply pointing out that your doomsday predictions for public sector employees if their right to strike was restricted is misplaced. There are plenty of non-unionised companies whose employees have no right to strike that continue to attract and retain staff even during the boom years. And they are not working 200 hours a week on minimum wage. Companies compete for employees just like employees compete for jobs. We are not talking about slave labour here. Everyone is free to change jobs.

The problem with the public sector isn't what they got paid in the past, its that they need to realise the past is gone. Economic conditions have changed, their employer is broke and has to reduce pay and numbers. However, public sector workers are free to leave in vast numbers and take their chances in the private sector. Then the Government will have to pay more to attract staff to fulfill its functions. Simple market forces. More effective than strikes or not answering the phones if unions want to protect terms and conditions.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

If this escalates, what are the options for the Gov? I presume they could draft in the army and also get help from other EU states? Could someone operate the systems remotely with a local presence for non-technical work etc?

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

If this escalates, what are the options for the Gov? I presume they could draft in the army and also get help from other EU states? Could someone operate the systems remotely with a local presence for non-technical work etc?

The army wouldn't have anough people to cover all the airports. There are no real options for the Government. The Government's biggest advantage is that they have public support so if I was them, I would call their bluff. I have a feeling Impact will back down on this.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Surely there are contingency plans for a function like this?

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Surely there are contingency plans for a function like this?

Why? What's the contingency if every pilot stopped working? Or if all the ESB workers walked out on the job?

It's not just a case of getting numbers in and giving them a couple of hours training.

 

[Latrade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Why? What's the contingency if every pilot stopped working? Or if all the ESB workers walked out on the job?

It's not just a case of getting numbers in and giving them a couple of hours training.

Or taxis, farmers, electrical contractors... all can effect business to some extent

Looks like the latest is it's likely they'll be in the LRC tomorrow. I think this is at the invitation of the LRC rather than a move by the individual parties, but it's unlikely they'll refuse the invitation.

 

[brigade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

That's the gig. The good pay, good benefits, good conditions and job for life should be the trade off.
If people in the public service sector don't like it they should move to the private sector.

The flip side, if it is so good why don't people from the private sector move to the public sector?
Would you be interested in a job in the public sector!

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Why? What's the contingency if every pilot stopped working? Or if all the ESB workers walked out on the job?

It's not just a case of getting numbers in and giving them a couple of hours training.

I agree if everyone in the IAA stopped working or if everyone in the ESB stopped working, I'm just talking about the controllers. Are there contingency plans for this, such as agreements in place with the UK etc for something like Disaster Recovery/Business Continuity planning etc

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I agree if everyone in the IAA stopped working or if everyone in the ESB stopped working, I'm just talking about the controllers. Are there contingency plans for this, such as agreements in place with the UK etc for something like Disaster Recovery/Business Continuity planning etc

What if just the people who operated the generation plants in the ESB went out on strike?

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I don't know - that's why I'm asking!