Would you vote for a United Ireland?

[TheBigShort]

I think it's somewhat naive to dismiss the importance of the Irish language Act at this point.
Regardless of your interest in it (if any) the simple point behind it is that was what was agreed at St Andrews. Simple as that.
Secondly, as someone who can broadly understand Irish (my grammar is poor) and whose grandparents grew up in an Irish speaking household, I am wholly supportive of any political parties that advocate for it's protection and the introduction of an Irish language Act.
It's a shame that the Act has somewhat got tangled up as a SF demand, whereas in reality, FF/FG/Lab/Greens/Alliance/SDLP/PBP are all in favour of an Irish language Act. It's a pity they are not more vocal about it.
Finally, it wasn't that long along that homosexual acts were criminalized and the notion of gay marriage was scoffed at. Travellers too were dismissed in their efforts to be recognized as an ethnic minority. But look where we are today.
Irish speaking people, and those who support the Irish language are entitled to express their views and pursue their ambitions. It just so happens, that ambition is reflected in a desire for an Irish language Act. Which is already agreed upon, which similar Acts have been introduced in Wales and the South of Ireland. The EU even affords Irish official recognition.
It's high time the bigotry of unionism, hiding behind the 'threat' of the Irish language was exposed to everyone, and beaten by everyone.

 

[Betsy Og]

I take your point but why would FF/FG/Lab be saying anything about it, nowt to do with us....for the time being at least. Overall it seems a very trivial thing to be log jammed over, considering where NI has come from. Even in the South Irish is a bit of a cinderalla topic, and I'm saying that as someone who is fairly proficient and interested. For instance I think its a pure waste of money having EU legislation and whatever else produced as gaeilge. I can live with tokenism as long as its not costing loads of cash, or put it another way I'd rather that cash went to TG4 or Conradh na Gaeilge or supporting gaeltacht communities or whatever.

The problem is ok a) unionist intransigence, but also b) SF's capacity to toxify pretty much anything it touches, like this current Jailteacht issue. Could they stop attaching themselves to Irish culture like they have some ownership of it, ditto the GAA, or the IRA at Play as it was, since the South had to outvote the North on Rule 22 - the GAA was within weeks of being anti the security forces while SF signed up to PSNI - that would've looked great wouldn't it...... sigh

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Well B/S you are right that the St Andrews agreement committed the Government to introducing an ILA along the lines of Wales and Ireland. The DUP signed up for that. So why have SF managed to make this stick in the unionist craw (and not just the DUP)? It didn't seem to be an issue when SF collapsed the Executive but it is now. Clearly an ILA can be as long as a piece of string.

If an when this all comes to grief I presume we will learn what the sticking points were. If a Wales type situation was on offer from SF then it is the DUP that have welshed (no pun intended) on St Andrews. I suspect though that SF have put up really unpalatable demands.

 

[TheBigShort]

I take your point but why would FF/FG/Lab be saying anything about it, nowt to do with us....

Because, apparently, they all support a UI. They all support the GFA and they all support the Irish language. They also all support the rights of Irish citizens abroad, as far away as Egypt even, so to neglect the rights of Irish citizens in Ireland is simply not a runner.

Overall it seems a very trivial thing to be log jammed over, considering where NI has come from.

Depends on your perspective. I thought gay marriage was quite trivial, until I began to understand the discrimination felt by gay people. As far as logged jammed is concerned, it does seem to be that way, but only after ten yrs in government, together with dealing with legacy issues, bill of rights, gay marriage etc. Unfortunate as it is, the ILA is basically the acid test of a new NI. One that isn't dictated by traditional, conservative unionist thinking.

For instance I think its a pure waste of money having EU legislation and whatever else produced as gaeilge.

I don't think it is a waste of money at all. It means should anyone want a copy of EU legislation in any of the dozens of official EU languages then they can do so.
I do think it is a waste of money to publish thousands of hardcopies, in any language, but I'm not sure if that is what actually happens.
Certainly I can't ever recall reading a full copy of an EU treaty in English.

Could they stop attaching themselves to Irish culture like they have some ownership of it, ditto the GAA, or the IRA at Play as it was, since the South had to outvote the North on Rule 22 - the GAA was within weeks of being

GAA, SF, IRA (old, New, Provo etc.), FF, FG, Lab, IRB, Easter Rising, Battle of the Boyne, Conradh na Gael, RTE, TV3 TG4, FAI, IF A, IRFU, The Chieftains, Dubliners, Pogues, West life, U2, Yeats, Wilde, Roddy Doyle, etc...etc... are all part of our past, present and culture. Impossible not to attach them to our culture regardless of what anyone thinks of them.

 

[TheBigShort]

So why have SF managed to make this stick in the unionist craw (and not just the DUP)? It didn't seem to be an issue when SF collapsed the Executive but it is now. Clearly an ILA can be as long as a piece of string.

Outside unionism, I'm not sure who is against the ILA. As mentioned above, it should be somewhat trivial. I think it is the DUP that are making it political. Lord John Taylor Kilclooney described it as the biggest threat to Unionism since partition?!?!
It's a minority language, supported by citizens of the north!!!

 

[Purple]

Could they stop attaching themselves to Irish culture like they have some ownership of it, ditto the GAA

That accusation could be leveled at the Gaeilgeoirs and the whole Gaelscoileanna thing (the best form of social apartheid out there). I constantly get the vibe that if you speak Irish fluently and have a country accent you are somehow more Irish than the rest of us. If you can have a west Kerry accent while watching the GAA on TG4 then you really are part of the chosen race.
Having had Irish beaten into my dyslexic head for 13 years in school I will admit that I am not positively inclined towards the language or the cultural baggage that goes with it. I'm more positively disposed towards the liberal, pluralistic enlightened modern Ireland than the misogynistic, homophobic, repressive, priest ridden (pun intended), insular Ireland of the past. I see the Irish language and much of the culture that goes with it as part of that old Ireland. Maybe that's unfair but I can't separate the two. Think Paddy Kavanagh and Monaghan.

 

[Delboy]

Generalise much
The 'liberal, pluralistic enlightened modern Ireland' that you speak of seems to have replaced the 'priest ridden' (for which I think there was no need to imply a pun) hierarchy with a new leadership in the form of the Irish Times/SJW's working in packs/unaccountable and foreign funded NGO's/Communication spin doctors etc.
We know with the benefit of hindsight what the former did....it's too early yet to see the full extent of the damage the latter will cause.

As for Gaelscoileanna...yes, your previous experiences in a non-Gaelscoil has probably coloured your throughts on the subject of Irish. Which you have cause to remind us on a regular basis. But your lack of knowledge/experience of the Gaelscoil area itself always shines through.

Perhaps the Ireland of today has just modernised it's prejudices rather than discard them altogether, or so it looks to me

 

[Betsy Og]

The language was alive long before any of that stuff, I don't think it has cultural baggage as such. Admittedly I do wince when I hear someone with an Irish name coming on a talk show as 9 times out of 10 they are craw thumping types - but that's hardly the fault of the language.

TheBigShort - on your big list of Irish culture, it is the inappropriate politicising of them that I have an issue with. Even the gaelic revival of the late 1800's was not to generate a weapon against someone, it was to re-establish our own distinct identity. So the Irish language is SF's current weapon, are they moving onto traditional music after that, flutes will be banned from orange marches (...would there be anyone left ) to be replaced by fiddles. After that we'll have set dancing at all crossroads on a rota basis, then all sportsgrounds must be opened to the GAA.

I personally don't want my culture weaponised.....

 

[odyssey06]

The language was alive long before any of that stuff, I don't think it has cultural baggage as such. Admittedly I do wince when I hear someone with an Irish name coming on a talk show as 9 times out of 10 they are craw thumping types - but that's hardly the fault of the language.

Irish is loaded with cultural baggage, at this stage it is 10% living language and 90% politico-nationalist-cultural baggage.
It's hard to separate the language from its speakers... how do we know the dancer from the dance?

If someone loves languages - I think JRR Tolkien said he looked forward to discovering a new language the way some people look forward to opening a new bottle of wine - then they have my best wishes. But I see too many people using Irish as a stick to beat people with, or something to use in 'virtue signalling'.

And a significant attraction of Gaelscoileanna to parents in urban areas has nothing to do with the language per se i.e. it is more about the kind of students it deters. That's not the fault of the language either but it would be naive to think Gaelscoileanna is just about the language.

 

[Betsy Og]

Irish is loaded with cultural baggage, at this stage it is 10% living language and 90% cultural baggage.

ah here.....

Re gaelscoileanna, they just reflect the locality in which they are based. So around me in rural Munster they are normal schools for normal people. In cities its all about social selection, so is the gaelscoil any more guilty than the private school?, the rugby school?, the school located in the affluent area? In border areas I gather there's a fair old republican tinge to proceedings but, guess what......

It's just another example of hijacking. Go to a gaeltacht area ...best in Summer... and see how natural it is. You don't have to wrap yourself in a tri-colour or give out about the foreigners.....

 

[odyssey06]

Re gaelscoileanna, they just reflect the locality in which they are based. So around me in rural Munster they are normal schools for normal people. In cities its all about social selection, so is the gaelscoil any more guilty than the private school?, the rugby school?, the school located in the affluent area? In border areas I gather there's a fair old republican tinge to proceedings but, guess what......

Yes and if you had asked me about rugby in Ireland in the 1980s I would also have said it is 20% a sport and 80% cultural baggage... In Wales or New Zealand the figures would be reversed.
Thankfully Irish rugby has now grown beyond that.
The Irish language is still stuck in the 80% cultural baggage zone, of which urban gaelscoileanna are a part.
And too many genuine people who love the language are conniving in this hijacking.

 

[Delboy]

My kids go to an Gaelscoil. They go because it's local, it's small (and not a child factory as so many schools in Dublin appear to me who went to a 2 teacher school in the west back in the day) and because in an ever more globalised world, I wanted my kids to be able to speak Irish to keep the language alive into the future.
They go because the Gaelscoils have a good academic record and because it's a feeder into a nearby Gaelcholaiste which enables me to avoid all the fee paying, rugby playing bs that comes with living in Sth Dublin.

There is an open entrance policy into the school. Siblings get first priority and then it's the waiting list. Anyone can apply to the waiting list, there is no Irish language requirement though it is encouraged at home.
Probably 1 of the most open policies around.

But hey, lets keep the generalised bashing going.

 

[Betsy Og]

At least I gained 10% in the recent poll.

Irish mainly exists in educational apathy - even there much of it is "I studied it for years and haven't a clue." Same is true of anything, I got a B in honours French and I wouldn't embarass myself trying to speak 2 sentences. The whole beating it out of you (pre-independence) and beating it into you (post-independence, and I'm still referring to the language..) are historical at this stage. No-one beat Irish into me, or any of my classmates. I don't gush over memories of physics either, why the negativity on Irish.

Irish then exists in gaeltachts, not a whole lot more than geographical & linguistic curiosities at this stage, but still there nonetheless.

Irish exists on TG4, where I get a top up while watching sports.

Irish exists as a tokenistic addendum to many aspects of Irish life, e.g. Government Departments, the GAA, general national schools, occasionally in the church.

Irish is also hijacked by opportunistic parents, extreme right wingers, jailteacht republicans.

So apart from moaning former students, Irish is a taught language which is there to be enjoyed by all, needs more outlets, is sometimes hijacked, but to say its 80% cultural/other baggage is very unfair to it I think.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It will be fascinating to find out the detail on why SF/DUP could not agree an ILA. I might be wrong and all that SF are arguing for is Wales style tokenism. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they wanted bonus points at A-levels (like down here, how unfair is that?), 10% quotas for the public service, all roads and streets with bilingual names etc.

My guess is that SF will be shown up as mostly to blame but I stand to be ejected.

 

[Purple]

But hey, lets keep the generalised bashing going.

Indeed;

which enables me to avoid all the fee paying, rugby playing bs that comes with living in Sth Dublin.

 

[TheBigShort]

it is the inappropriate politicising of them that I have an issue with

I don’t disagree, but I think you will find that it is the Unionists that are politicising the issue, not SF. An ILA was agreed upon at St Andrews, the broad political spectrum across Ireland, North and South supports an ILA. There is a Gaelic Language Act in Scotland, a Welsh Language Act in Wales, An Official Languages Act in RoI, Irish is an official language of the EU, one of 24 official languages. SF, it appears to me, are simply requiring what was agreed to be implemented, to be implemented.

It is the obstruction of that implementation that is politicising the issue – in a normal society, it would be a no-brainer, legislation drafted, amended, put in front of select committee, amended again etc…etc…then put before parliament and passed – without fuss. Irish speakers can then get on with their business, non-Irish speakers can then get on with their business.

 

[Delboy]

I firmly believe the fee paying school industry to be infested with rugby bs...so not, not generalising at all

 

[TheBigShort]

Why is a gaelscoil in Munster 'natural' and one in a border region, say like Donegal, a 'hi-jacking'? How can any Irish person hi-jack something that is already part of their culture and tradition and already belongs to them?

 

[Purple]

I firmly believe the fee paying school industry to be infested with rugby bs...so not, not generalising at all

I went to a GAA school (Christian Brothers) in South Dublin. It was infested with GAA BS as it was a feeder school for a large GAA Club. Students got time off to train, announcements were made during classes about training in the local GAA Club. Teachers were also coaches with the Club and students who were on the A teams were singled out for special treatment.

My son goes to a school which plays rugby. They also play Gaelic Football, Hurling and Football as well as many other sports. My son doesn't play rugby and it has never gone against him in school.

My views on Gaelscoil are indeed Dublin focused. Sending your kids there in Dublin means that they will be almost exclusively surrounded by middle class white kids of Irish parents. You get the exclusivity of a fee paying school without the fees and with a moral superiority thrown in for free.

Anyway, we are off topic here.

 

[Delboy]

My views on Gaelscoil are indeed Dublin focused. Sending your kids there in Dublin means that they will be almost exclusively surrounded by middle class white kids of Irish parents. You get the exclusivity of a fee paying school without the fees and with a moral superiority thrown in for free.

Most of them are open to all who apply...that so many don't is their problem. Or perhaps quotas should be imposed on children of African/Eastern Europeans immigrants to make them go to Gaelscoils, I'm sure they'd be delighted with that!
Anyways sending your kids to an awful lot of schools in Sth Dublin means they will be surrounded by gasp/horror ' middle class white kids'. The cruelty of it. The issue for so many seems to be that some of those schools are Irish language based.

But I'm surprised to hear that people who learn a language have a moral superiority complex. I thought learning languages was something that Liberals would be very approving of. Or are some languages more worthy than others!
I could get my kids to learn Chinese for example. But I wouldn't want to be accused of being anti-democratic/anti human rights!

Irish really does seem to rattle certain people here. That's a major psychological study waiting to happen