Would spending more money on the health service do any good?

[Early Riser]

How you can dismiss the specific experience of senior people is beyond me.

So "three senior people" told you some anecdotes at dinner and you now have "evidence" to make a sweeping generalization about the whole health Service ? Can I ask when was the last time "three senior people" told you some anecdotes about how they themselves weren't up to, or weren't really motivated enough to, do their own jobs properly ? I guess never.

It is very easy to tell anecdotes to disparage others to both elevate one's own importance and to indulge and flatter the prejudice of others. It usually says more about the competence, confidence and motivation of the teller.

If these were "three senior people" - competent senior people - I would have been much more impressed if they had outlined an analysis of the organizational , structural and managerial issues underlying health service dysfunction and proposals to address same. If they weren't senior enough for this, perhaps they might have outlined real tangible change they were able to achieve in their own area of responsibility (rather than pub bore anecdotes).

But perhaps, Gordon's anecdote does illustrate one real problem in the health service (or any dysfunctional organization) - one group casting stones at another, particularly when they are insecure about how they are performing in their own roles.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

You're right...the ludicrous levels of absenteeism mean nothing.

 

[Purple]

It is strange that absenteeism for nurses is a multiple of that of doctors considering that they are working in the same environment and doctors work much longer hours.

 

[Firefly]

According to Firefly:- "The extra money just went on higher wages for existing staff. A root and branch shakedown is required and where possible the services should be privatised or at a minimum have the existing hospitals competing with each other."

1. The wages for every public hospital were reduced years ago through Croke Park and Haddington Road Agreements and have not recovered since. Sorry Firefly, wherever the money went, it didn't go on wages.

Hi Leper,

There's no arguing that wages were cut via Croke Park. The point I am making is that in the years upto the Celtic Tiger, say from 2000 to 2006 we had progressive benchmarking exercises where wages in the public sector passed out those in the private sector. During this time I do not believe the standard of healthcare improved improved. And that's the point, putting more money into health essentially just means higher wages.

Firefly.

 

[Early Riser]

You're right...the ludicrous levels of absenteeism mean nothing

Everything means something.

It is strange that absenteeism for nurses is a multiple of that of doctors considering that they are working in the same environment and doctors work much longer hours.

So, perhaps, it means that nurses are inherently more lazy than doctors ? Or more lazy than private sector workers, generally ?

I am sure once "three senior people" have worked out which it is, they will implement a cunning plan to sort things out. I have every confidence in this sophisticated level of organizational thinking and change management. I bet they have Harvard MBAs.

 

[Firefly]

I am sure once "three senior people" have worked out which it is, they will implement a cunning plan to sort things out. I have every confidence in this sophisticated level of organizational thinking and change management. I bet they have Harvard MBAs.

Interesting point. It's a point that's been made often in the past that the level of academic education in the public sector is a valid reason for why they should be paid so much. It's refreshing to see others see this for the scam that it is!!

 

[Leper]

Have you considered the fact that private hospitals don't tolerate poor performers or bizarre work practices?

Yes they do. In fact the largest payouts of compensation to mistreated patients have been from private hospitals and their consultants.

 

[Leper]

You're right...the ludicrous levels of absenteeism mean nothing.

What ludicrous levels of absenteeism?

 

[Leper]

Let's call a spade a spade...staff are overpaid and too many of them are lazy and overly-unionised.

Probably the most ill thought out and downright offensive comment on this thread todate. Proof please (or at least source). Are you also saying that hospital staff should not be members of trade unions?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Absenteeism is 5 times higher

 

[Early Riser]

Probably the most ill thought out and downright offensive comment on this thread todate. Proof please (or at least source). Are you also saying that hospital staff should not be members of trade unions?

Leper, I am surprised at your accusation. You should know by now that Gordon is a paragon of rational explanation, based upon considered analysis of all the complexities of any situation and all the available empirical evidence. Let's spell out this explanation:

1 There are major problems with the Health Service.

2 There is a simple explanation for this.

3 Staff are overpaid, lazy and over-unionised.

4 They are so overpaid that they have to take sick leave to spend their money.

5 So, "absenteeism is 5 times higher".

6 Nurses are particularly lazy. Doctors are not.

7 I know all this because I had dinner with "three senior people".

8 These three senior people are not part of the problem because they had dinner with me.

9 They told me stories that conformed with my pre-conceptions about the Health Service.

10 Therefore, these stories are an accurate analysis of the underlying problem with the Health Service.

11 These three senior people can't effect any change because staff are overpaid, lazy and over-unionised.

12 Repeat from number 4 down ad nauseam.


I am surprised at your difficulty grasping this. But, no fear - Gordon will explain it more fully (and simply) in his up-coming Ladybird Book ("A Spade is a Spade").

 

[galway_blow_in]

the only thing ive learned from reading this thread is that sarcastic posts are popular

 

[Firefly]

I am surprised at your difficulty grasping this. But, no fear - Gordon will explain it more fully (and simply) in his up-coming Ladybird Book ("A Spade is a Spade").

Plenty of pictures in it anyway so you'll be grand

 

[becky]

I am convinced that the reason for low rate for doctors is under reporting. Consultants and junior doctors work all over the hospitals unlike nurses who have a ward/clinic base.

In relation to whether more money is needed, i'm a no.

I'd like to see less adverts for posts like these
https://hse.ie/eng/staff/Jobs/Job_Search/Management_Admin_ICT/?pageNumber=2

Read page 1 also.

 

[Leper]

Consultants and junior doctors work all over the hospitals (The consultants deal with their private patients not just some public patients in our public hospitals and these are not confined to one room).Consequently, the NCHD's ("junior" doctors) would change rooms accordingly. [Incidentally, the words "junior doctors" only exist when they are interviewed on national television news. In the hospitals they are known as Registrars, Senior House Officers etc. Ask anybody who gave birth who will inform you it's the relevant Registrar who attends most births.

Most nurses would not be confined to one ward or one clinic. Many consultants leave hospitals pretty early to staff their private clinics elsewhere.

 

[cremeegg]

That's not evidence that's anecdote.
I have plenty of "laughable" stories from the private sector too.

Sure, but that is the private sector, if they operate inefficiently they go broke. Thats their problem not the taxpayers. (With of course the shameful exception of the banks)

I see plenty of people working to the bone, doing the work of 2-3 people who have not been replaced, working within a Dickensian infrastructure

And are these people to be admired. Its easy to admire the nurse who cares for the sick person, but if they are propping up a sick system they are at fault for its continuation as much as those who actively block referm

our IT system is archaic and we still have to use ledgers for many things.

Well pumping €200m into PPARS didn't do any good. Introducing an electronic patient records system would be a major achievement for the health service, but I think that they system, management staff and unions are simply not capable of doing it.

By contrast Revenue moved every taxpayer in the country onto ROS with very little proble

 

[Daithi7]

To answer the original question: No.

The Irish health service offers the worst value in the world. (source OECD) We pay in the highest decile of costs per person, with the lowest decile in outcomes and this is with a relatively young population who should be easier to cater for. It's a disgrace.

The simple fact is that the public sector is grossly overpaid, over pensioned and over protected. They are also woefully inefficient.

Thank Bertie for benchmarking!! '

 

[cremeegg]

The Irish health service offers the worst value in the world. (source OECD)

Have you a link for that

 

[Purple]

Have you a link for that

Link

 

[odyssey06]

Link

From the linked article:
"The share of generic drugs in the market is low in Ireland in both in volume (29% compared with an OECD average of 48%) and in value (16% compared with an OECD average of 24%)."

Clearly the HSE already has too much budget.