Why don't we require people seeking medical treatment to have vaccination certificates?

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

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Unvaccinated people represent a disproportionate share of those in hospital and in intensive care.

They are stopping vaccinated people getting the treatment they need - for non-Covid issues.

On balance, I would be against mandatory vaccination.

The few people I know who have refused to be vaccinated say it's not a serious disease and they won't get it. Fine. But if they do, let them look after themselves. Don't let them block up our hospitals.

Brendan
 
I don't know if that could be done here legally, refusal of medical treatment in that way. After all, taking drugs is illegal but if someone ends up in hospital with an overdose they are treated.

Now there might be some informal triage going on which takes that into consideration if there is a lack of ICU beds but a flat out "must have vaccine" but that's about as far as I can see it happening here.

Even in Singapore they most they did was make people pay for their ICU treatment, not refuse it.
 
Brendan, many unvaccinated people may have serious underlying conditions and maybe can't take the vaccine or have been advised not to do so, many may have had one vaccine and because of serious side effects, were advised not to take the second dose, they are classed as unvaccinated too. We do not know why , the people in ICU are not vaccinated.
 
deanne said:
Brendan, many unvaccinated people may have serious underlying conditions and maybe can't take the vaccine or have been advised not to do so, many may have had one vaccine and because of serious side effects, were advised not to take the second dose, they are classed as unvaccinated too. We do not know why , the people in ICU are not vaccinated.
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That is absolutely not true, only a very small minority of the unvaccinated are so due to underlying health issues.

Less than 0.5% report any side-effect whatsoever, side effects like anaphylaxis that would mean they would be advised not to get the second dose have an incidence rate of 0.00001.
 
Leo said:
That is absolutely not true, only a very small minority of the unvaccinated are so due to underlying health issues.

Less than 0.5% report any side-effect whatsoever, side effects like anaphylaxis that would mean they would be advised not to get the second dose have an incidence rate of 0.00001.
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Leo, anaphylaxis is an extreme reaction. Many people have had other reactions, myocarditis, tinnitus, neurological side effects, there is a long list of probable side effects. I personally know people that this has happened to and were advised by their doctors to not take the second dose, they are in limbo land. They are not considered vaccinated and therefore excluded from normal socializing.
 
deanne said:
Leo, anaphylaxis is an extreme reaction. Many people have had other reactions, myocarditis, tinnitus, neurological side effects, there is a long list of probable side effects. I personally know people that this has happened to and were advised by their doctors to not take the second dose, they are in limbo land. They are not considered vaccinated and therefore excluded from normal socializing.
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As I said, 0.45% report side-effects. The vast majority of those are advised it is perfectly safe to take the second vaccine. Covid vaccine side-effects are very carefully monitored, all those vaccinated are requested to report side-effects to the HPRA. The incidence rate of serious side-effects here are so small as to have no bearing whatsoever on current hospitalisation numbers.

Who you know is completely irrelevant in the context.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Unvaccinated people represent a disproportionate share of those in hospital and in intensive care.

They are stopping vaccinated people getting the treatment they need - for non-Covid issues.

On balance, I would be against mandatory vaccination.

The few people I know who have refused to be vaccinated say it's not a serious disease and they won't get it. Fine. But if they do, let them look after themselves. Don't let them block up our hospitals.

Brendan
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Getting vaccinated is a choice and I have no issue with that, as I said elsewhere those I know who aren't seem happy with their decision.

But unvaccinated people must accept that they must live with the consequences of their decisions and while mandatory vaccination is unpalatable for many of us it just might be the only way of finally managing "living " with Covid-19.

Vaccination is a far more efficient way of protecting general health and peoples livelihoods than restrictions.

I think we had to have mandatory vaccination in the 50s to break the TB situation.
 
Leo said:
As I said, 0.45% report side-effects. The vast majority of those are advised it is perfectly safe to take the second vaccine. Covid vaccine side-effects are very carefully monitored, all those vaccinated are requested to report side-effects to the HPRA. The incidence rate of serious side-effects here are so small as to have no bearing whatsoever on current hospitalisation numbers.

Who you know is completely irrelevant in the context.
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Leo, I know what I know and it is the truth. If you can definitely tell me the number of partially vaccinated people in ICU, I would be grateful and enlightened. Maybe, people do not report side effects to HPRA or are unaware that this facility exists.
 
deanne said:
Leo, I know what I know and it is the truth. If you can definitely tell me the number of partially vaccinated people in ICU, I would be grateful and enlightened. Maybe, people do not report side effects to HPRA or are unaware that this facility exists.
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Partially vaccinated people make up 5% of ICU admissions. This number will of course include some who suffered a secere reaction to the first dose, and many who chose not to take up the second dose even though they reported no side-effects.

You are advised of the ability to report side-effects when being vaccinated, and the Leaflet you are handed also goes into detail on the reporting process along with the various side effects (including incidence rates). Given that only 0.45% of people are reporting symptoms, it's clear many are choosing not to report mild symptoms even though that is not discouraged.

However, it would be extraordinary for someone having a such a severe reaction as to rule out a second dose not seeking medical advice, and that would result in their doctor reporting the reaction.
 
From independent today

According to the data, 99.7pc of people aged 18 and older who live in Waterford are fully vaccinated, while 96.8pc of teenagers and children aged 12 years and above have also completed a Covid-19 vaccine course.

Don't buy the "can't get vaccinated due to medical reasons" until each county reaches the level of vaccination achieved in Waterford
 
Imagine only 5% were partially vaccinated, that's interesting. So roughly 50% were vaccinated and 50% completely unvaccinated,as per data from HSE dated 13th November. That said, 63% unvaccinated, 37% one vax, 29% breakthrough infection. That gives 66% in ICU , partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated and 63% unvaccinated. This was out of 589 people admitted to ICU.
 
deanne said:
That said, 63% unvaccinated, 37% one vax, 29% breakthrough infection. That gives 66% in ICU , partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated and 63% unvaccinated. This was out of 589 people admitted to ICU.
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Can you re-word that?
 
deanne said:
Brendan, many unvaccinated people may have serious underlying conditions and maybe can't take the vaccine or have been advised not to do so, many may have had one vaccine and because of serious side effects, were advised not to take the second dose, they are classed as unvaccinated too. We do not know why , the people in ICU are not vaccinated.
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@deanne, Brendan is referring to a cohort of people who remain unvaccinated by choice, either because of an ideological notion or no reason at all.

People who either for medical reasons cannot be vaccinated or have had adverse reactions to the vaccine, obviously, would not fall into that cohort.
 
Sophrosyne said:
@deanne, Brendan is referring to a cohort of people who remain unvaccinated by choice, either because of an ideological notion or no reason at all.
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Since when is being an idiot an ideology?
The technical term for that group is 'the hard of understanding'.

Symptoms include a casual relationship with reality, paranoia, a total lack of any grasp of statistics, total unfamiliarity with the concept of Confirmation Bias and the use of the phrase 'Mainstream Media' when referring to the actual Media rather than some whack-job Twitting on Twitter or posting on Fakebook.
 
Leo said:
Can you re-word that?
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Yes, Leo, practically the same % in ICU between April 2021 and November 2021 were as follows,i.e. 63% were unvaccinated... ...37% + 29% had one vaccine or doubled vaccinated = 66%. It's even stevens
 
deanne said:
Yes, Leo, practically the same % in ICU between April 2021 and November 2021 were as follows,i.e. 63% were unvaccinated... ...37% + 29% had one vaccine or doubled vaccinated = 66%. It's even stevens
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Eh percentages are meant to add to 100.
I believe the 63% includes the partially vaccinated, did last time I looked.

The ratio has been consistent at about 2:1 unvaccinated: vaccinated.

As its difficult to understand your posts what point are you trying to make?
 
1 Health Protection Surveillance Centre

Vaccination status of COVID-19 cases admitted to ICU in Ireland
between April 1
st 2021 and November 13th 2021
Key points
Between April 1st and November 13th 2021:
• 589 persons (aged 15 + years) were reported to the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) as
admitted to ICU with confirmed COVID-19 infection.
• 369/589 (63%) cases reported as not having received a COVID-19 vaccine or were not registered as
vaccinated on Ireland’s national COVID-19 immunisation system (COVAX).
• 220/589 (37%) cases were reported as having received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine
prior to admission to ICU.
• 170/589 (29%) cases were vaccine breakthrough infections (see technical note)
o The median age of these cases was 67 years (range: 30 to 88 years)
___________________________________________________________________
Five hundred and eighty-nine persons (aged 15+ years) with confirmed COVID-19 infection were admitted to
ICU between April 1
st and November 13th 2021 and reported to the national Computerised Infectious Disease
Reporting (CIDR) system at HPSC. Of these 589 cases, 369 (63%) were reported as not having received a COVID-
19 vaccine or were not registered as vaccinated on Ireland’s national COVID-19 immunisation system
(COVAX) and 220 (37%) were reported as having received at least one COVID-19 vaccine prior to ICU
admission.
There are 170 breakthrough infections1
identified in the vaccinated cohort of COVID-19 patients admitted to
ICU between April 1st and November 13th 2021.
Of the breakthrough infections (n=170):
• 104 were male and 66 were female
• Median age was 67 years (range: 30 to 88 years); Mean age was 66 years
• 165 cases (97%) were reported to have an underlying medical condition
• 66 cases (39%) were reported to have died
• There was one admission to ICU in June, 6 in July, 39 in August, 42 in September, 57 in October, and
25 in November
 
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