When will alcohol and tobacco be banned?

Too many politicans are publicians and cigarette companies are, I presume, generous to political parties at election time so the answer is? Never

I can see where your coming from, but then why was there a smoking ban brought in. This must of really ****ed of the publicians and cigarette companies. Also the hugh amount of tax placed on these items hardly serves the publicians and cigarette companies. THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY. Alcohol and tobacco are socially acceptable ways of unwinding and relaxing, tobacco is currently losing its soical acceptance. Legals Highs or Highs of any kind are not tollerated by society in general, maybe in time this will change just like our attitudes to tobacco are changing.

However i am sure new drugs are being developed by whoever supplies the head stores and the problem will soon be back. I just hope the new drugs they develope will not be as addictive or destroying as the likes of crystal meyth or heroine.
 
. I just hope the new drugs they develope will not be as addictive or destroying as the likes of crystal meyth or heroine.
Were the banned drugs addictive? BZP has a very low addiction rate, 2% or something. (Anyone that takes BZP more than once must be insane anyway!)
 
Were the banned drugs addictive? BZP has a very low addiction rate, 2% or something. (Anyone that takes BZP more than once must be insane anyway!)

No i dont think they where addictive, but definatly messed you up big time. But whos to say what these people develope next wont be highly addictive and destructive. I mean lets be honest with ourselves I dont think these people give a damn what health affects their drugs have on people as long as they buy them.
 
No i dont think they where addictive, but definatly messed you up big time. But whos to say what these people develope next wont be highly addictive and destructive. I mean lets be honest with ourselves I dont think these people give a damn what health affects their drugs have on people as long as they buy them.
You've just highlighted a problem here. This is exactly what will happen. The labs will create more of these drugs, and when they get made illegal, the whole process starts again. There are a huge number of various chemical compounds to mess about with. The less history that a drug has, the less information we have about its effects.

Banning these drugs are obviously not the solution. What a pitty that those that make the decisions don't do some research, and instead pander to the media.
 
You've just highlighted a problem here. This is exactly what will happen. The labs will create more of these drugs, and when they get made illegal, the whole process starts again. There are a huge number of various chemical compounds to mess about with. The less history that a drug has, the less information we have about its effects.

Banning these drugs are obviously not the solution. What a pitty that those that make the decisions don't do some research, and instead pander to the media.
Isn't it better to do your research and if you are happy with the results then legalise it? It makes sense to only allow a product onto the market if the product is deemed safe in moderation. If these highs are shown to be safe in moderation then there is a case, but there is too little known yet. If we have legal highs are we not treating our kids as guinea pigs?
 
MrMan - no drug can be deemed 100% safe. What does 'moderation' mean?

Isn't it better to do your research and if you are happy with the results then legalise it? It makes sense to only allow a product onto the market if the product is deemed safe in moderation.
Why then is tobacco and alcohol legal? We all know that smoking definitely kills.
Why ban head shop drugs, but not drugs that we know for definite are dangerous, are addictive and have been marketed towards young people for decades?
 
Why ban head shop drugs, but not drugs that we know for definite are dangerous, are addictive and have been marketed towards young people for decades?

One point often made re a tobacco ban is that it would cause undue hardship to old people who were addicted before it became the health issues became common knowledge (though you'd imagine than anybody who thought about it could have guessed that inhaling smoke into your lungs was always going to be harmful). Whats the excuse for anyone who started in the last 25 years??

On the economic argument - ok we get the tax but look at all the health costs the state bears for cancer and heart disease linked to smoking. For those who say "its my life, my choices", I say fine but follow it through and pay for your own mess. Its not 100% profit for the state.

Is there a case for legalisation of low strength "oral" spamspamspam? - we can hardly try to stamp out tobacco smoking which legalising other smoking. Apparently an appropriate strength hash cookie is low risk, low addiction level etc. In my book thats equivalent to drinking a pint. Maybe that would strike the balance of cutting the illegal demand for a product without introducing a public health risk.

Re strength of marajuana/spamspamspam etc, I gather the 60's stuff wasnt nearly as strong as modern variants and maybe there is a "safe" level that could be allowed. I'm not convinced on the gateway drug argument, or that if that the point that a hash cookie would be any more a gateway drung than a pint of beer. I do however note that many mental health experts have a big issue with the effects of spamspamspam use - maybe thats down to strength of product or overuse.
 
I can see where your coming from, but then why was there a smoking ban brought in. This must of really ****ed of the publicians and cigarette companies. Also the hugh amount of tax placed on these items hardly serves the publicians and cigarette companies. THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY. Alcohol and tobacco are socially acceptable ways of unwinding and relaxing, tobacco is currently losing its soical acceptance. Legals Highs or Highs of any kind are not tollerated by society in general, maybe in time this will change just like our attitudes to tobacco are changing.

However i am sure new drugs are being developed by whoever supplies the head stores and the problem will soon be back. I just hope the new drugs they develope will not be as addictive or destroying as the likes of crystal meyth or heroine.

I'n not complaining about headshops being put out of busineess, just that I believe alcohol does much more damage to society than any of these legal highs. Then, when these highs are banned we have people complaining that those addicted are have nowhere to go and demanding treatment be provided!
 
I'n not complaining about headshops being put out of busineess, just that I believe alcohol does much more damage to society than any of these legal highs. Then, when these highs are banned we have people complaining that those addicted are have nowhere to go and demanding treatment be provided!

The only problem here is we're not in a position to compare directly. Like statistics on how harmful illegal drugs are when compared to alcohol and tobacco. We know how much alcohol and tobacco is sold, we know directly how big an impact this has on a saturday night in A&E or in the cancer wards. We don't have the same knowledge of the headshop products or illegal drugs.

Yes, more people are killed by alcohol and tobacco combined each year than all illegal drugs and headshop products, but then much more people use those two products than illegal products.

I'm actually for the legalisation of products, one to decimate the criminal side, two the tax intake, three think of the boost to the pharmachem industry and jobs and four strength and purity can be controlled making them safer.

The caveat is we can't trust everyone to be sensible about using them and that's a social taboo we have to work on. Is getting so stoned you can't move from the couch or can't stop laughing or eating any less problematic on health and society than binge drinking?
 
MrMan - no drug can be deemed 100% safe. What does 'moderation' mean?


Why then is tobacco and alcohol legal? We all know that smoking definitely kills.
Why ban head shop drugs, but not drugs that we know for definite are dangerous, are addictive and have been marketed towards young people for decades?

If I have a glass of wine tonight that is moderation and no harm will come to me. If I take a pill, who knows what will happen?
Drink and tobacco are already legal so there is a case for you and others to look into regarding making them illegal, but any new drugs should surely be examined in extreme detail before being allowed onto the market?
Its not a case of taking sweets off both children because one of them was naughty just to keep the peace, we need to examine the latest information and work with that.
 
MrMan - no drug can be deemed 100% safe. What does 'moderation' mean?


Why then is tobacco and alcohol legal? We all know that smoking definitely kills.
Why ban head shop drugs, but not drugs that we know for definite are dangerous, are addictive and have been marketed towards young people for decades?

What is your point here? You are proposing to ban alcohol and tobacco as 'no drug in 100% safe' and 'smoking definitely kills'. Following on that logic, transport should be banned as our roads/rail/airspace are 'dangerous'. Neither should we cross the road or go tow ork for our own health and safety. And if smoking definitely kills, we should lso avoid hospitals in case we get MRSA which 'definitely' kills too! We should ban newspapers and television so that our young people cannot be targetted by the evil marketing people!
 
What is your point here? You are proposing to ban alcohol and tobacco as 'no drug in 100% safe' and 'smoking definitely kills'.

I don't think it unreasonable to make the point about alcohol and tobacco. It largely boils down to the criteria under which substances are made illegal, if the same criteria was applied to alcohol or tabacco, they would be banned.

Again, it isn't an unreasonable question to ask if that is the criteria for criminalising a substance or behaviour, why isn't it applied in all circumstances?
 
What is your point here? You are proposing to ban alcohol and tobacco as 'no drug in 100% safe' and 'smoking definitely kills'. Following on that logic, transport should be banned as our roads/rail/airspace are 'dangerous'. Neither should we cross the road or go tow ork for our own health and safety. And if smoking definitely kills, we should lso avoid hospitals in case we get MRSA which 'definitely' kills too! We should ban newspapers and television so that our young people cannot be targetted by the evil marketing people!

This is a strawman and makes no logical sense. Transport is not an addictive substance, nor is crossing the road, going to work, attending hospitals, newspapers or television.

None of these comparisons relate to the point that umop3p!sdn actually raised.

Latrade has put it very succintly - alcohol and tobacco are legal, drugs and now head shop substances are not - why?
If there is a criteria for criminalising these products then why is it not being applied to other addictive substances?
There cannot possibly be any long term studies with reliable data available re the effects of the head shop substances - they simply have not been around long enough.

What is the criteria that has been applied in this case, and why is that criteria limited to head shop substances?
 
This is a strawman and makes no logical sense. Transport is not an addictive substance, nor is crossing the road, going to work, attending hospitals, newspapers or television.

None of these comparisons relate to the point that umop3p!sdn actually raised.

Latrade has put it very succintly - alcohol and tobacco are legal, drugs and now head shop substances are not - why?
If there is a criteria for criminalising these products then why is it not being applied to other addictive substances?
There cannot possibly be any long term studies with reliable data available re the effects of the head shop substances - they simply have not been around long enough.

What is the criteria that has been applied in this case, and why is that criteria limited to head shop substances?


And therin lies the reason why they shouldn't be legalised yet.
 
T


The caveat is we can't trust everyone to be sensible about using them and that's a social taboo we have to work on. Is getting so stoned you can't move from the couch or can't stop laughing or eating any less problematic on health and society than binge drinking?

At least is you are too stoned to get up off the couch or can't stop laughing the only person you hurting, apart from your family, is yourself. You're not likely to be able to kick someone head in in that state. With alcohol it seems to be is a nightly event
 
I'd just like to point out that I actually don't want to ban anything!
I just wrote this thread to illustrate a point. (see latrade's post above)

I thought people would have copped on to that.
 
And therin lies the reason why they shouldn't be legalised yet.

Agreed, and herin lies the conundrum.

First, let's be honest and say the banning of these products is less about public health and more about public ratings and polls. However, that being said, I do feel they shouldn't be available until there is a demonstration they are not harmful.

But to what extent is harm classified? Addiction? Mental and Physical harm? Again, the point of the thread is that you couldn't come up with a defined criteria to assess without concluding alcohol and tabacco should also be banned.

The only area I've not seen open data on is the potential for harm by going over a prescribed limit. So for a casual user if I have 5 pints instead of 4, what's the additional risk to my health. In that case very little. For a casual user if I have 2 sachets of bath salts instead of 1, what's the risk? We don't know, but potentially on that criteria alcohol may still be legalised, but it would also be joined by some current illegal substances.

There is no way of making the decision that has been made without asking a legitimate question on alcohol and tabacco.
 
At least is you are too stoned to get up off the couch or can't stop laughing the only person you hurting, apart from your family, is yourself. You're not likely to be able to kick someone head in in that state. With alcohol it seems to be is a nightly event

In my own experience it depends on the person. I've never become in any way violent or aggressive with alcohol. Most of my friends are the same, one or two get a bit "odd" when they drink cider over beer or say whiskey, but they're mature enough to avoid it.

In the same way many people would become passive with cannibis, but that isn't always the case. It's down to the personality of the individual and how the intoxicant affects them.

However, with cannibis, if it were legalised we'd have the increased tax intake from the duty plus increased sales in munchies at 3 am which in turn would boost retail and those retailers that are opne 24hrs in turn meaning they have to employ mor staff working nights which would inturn give people more money to spend due to all the overtime.
 
However, with cannibis, if it were legalised we'd have the increased tax intake from the duty plus increased sales in munchies at 3 am which in turn would boost retail and those retailers that are opne 24hrs in turn meaning they have to employ mor staff working nights which would inturn give people more money to spend due to all the overtime.

Are you sure you are not on something yourself? given your flights of fancy - no offence meant:)

Its back to the over the counter medicines so ;) - watch pharamacy profits soar!
 
Maybe the optimum solution is to ban nothing but to have new regulations regarding age, licensing, distribution channels, etc, by making a new licence available to citizens who wish to “turn on, tune in and drop out”.

This “Junkie’s Licence” would be issued to people who attend training and education courses aimed at informing them of the effects and possible consequences of using a particular substance or group of substances.

The citizen, having attended the training and education has a decision to make, either to:

  • Stop using the substance(s)
  • Sign an application for the free “Junkie’s Licence” in order to continue using
  • Source their junk in an unregulated market-place
The consequences of being found in possession or under the influence of a controlled substance without an appropriate licence is summary execution by the new Substance Training, Licencing, Supervision and Enforcement Quango [note to Biffo : that’s probably four quangos, each with its own expensive PS CEO, management team, unique leased premises, IT and other infrastructure requirements, board of directors and maybe even its own new junior minister].

The application form for a “Junkie’s Licence” could be worded as follows :

“I, the under-signed, hereby acknowledge that I have attended the training and education courses in relation to the the health, legal and other effects and consequences of using (please delete as apropriate) [alcohol, tobacco, spamspamspam, tranquilisers, slimming tablets, opiates, cocaine, volatile inhalants, etc. Etc.]

I acknowledge that I fully understand the above course and its content and am now in a position to make a fully informed decision to continue using the above named substance(s) and I hereby apply for my official user’s licence.


I understand this licence allows me to purchase these substances for personal use from duly authorised retailers and to have them in my possession. I understand that the licence also allows me to be under the influence of these substances, but not in a public place and that my behaviour while under the influence of the substance(s) must never impact on other citizens.


Upon the grant of my licence, I absolve the State and my health insurer from any responsibility to treat me or intervene on my behalf for any conditions, either psychological, physiological or legal, that may arise consequential to my use of the substances(s).


Signed ………………………”


Mammy and Daddy can apply for Tommy and Suzy’s licence if Tommy and Suzy are under 18.

The Duly Authorised Retailers could be the current legal drug-dealing outlets (bars, supermarkets, corner shops, filling stations, chemists, hardware and DIY shops, etc.) who can only sell to people producing a valid “Junkie’s Licence”. Outlets licenced for “on-site consumption” can only release clients if they are no longer intoxicated (objectively tested by breath / blood / urine sample); thus they must provide in-house medical and other emergency services from their own resources, with these costs recoverable either directly from their clientele or through product pricing.

At a stroke the “War on Drugs” ends, everything is available through a simple licencing process, the sellers have to deal with the consequences of their sales directly, the general public has protection from drunks and other junkies, the licence-holders are free to legally kill themselves, each other or the product vendors and are never allowed out "high" in public on pain of death.

The savings for the Health Service and the State generally are potentially huge.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top