A
ajapale
Guest
"What is wrong with people nowadays? - PC
Whats wrong with child centered schooling?
ajapale
Whats wrong with child centered schooling?
ajapale
"What is wrong with people nowadays? Why do they all seem to think they are qualified to do things far above their capabilities?"
Like being a King in waiting for example? :rolleyes
Whats wrong with child centered schooling?
As far as I know some people consider child centered teaching to mean letting the brats do what they want and never correcting or punishing them for errors or transgressions for fear of stifling creativity and individual expression or imposing cultural bias on them.
Like being a King in waiting for example? :rolleyes
Whats wrong with child centered schooling?
As far as I know some people consider child centered teaching to mean letting the brats do what they want and never correcting or punishing them for errors or transgressions for fear of stifling creativity and individual expression or imposing cultural bias on them.
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XXXAnother PersonXXX
Guest
It's rather ironic that it was Charles of all people that came up with that. (If people were assessed by their abilities, he wouldn't have so much money.)
[Clubman appears to have beaten me to it!]
[Clubman appears to have beaten me to it!]
M
Marie
Guest
"What is wrong with people nowadays? - PC
I'm no monarchist and not defending The Prince of Wales (who can be just a tad overweening!) However in this case the spirit of his comments appears to have been lost whilst the pedantic "letter" (or memo!) remains.
He criticised the contemporary attitude that anyone can be anything. This is fostered by the Big Brother ethos of nonentities becoming t.v. personalities by dint of "just being themselves" (and talking c**p) and Political Correctness taken to extremes in denying innate differences between people......"All must have prizes". If so then does it matter, and isn't this attitude what creates ennui and disaffection in the yoof?
If kids can do/be anything they wish (because the standards are dropped to accommodate every brand of incompetence) what incentive is there to bother? I taught secondary-level pupils for over 10 years. Some were mighty talented but it was impossible to persuade them to study and develop skills (I was teaching fine art - painting and sculpture-making). One brilliant youngster whose work was accomplished and moving chose to leave school early and get a market-stall.......quick cash. "It takes too long to become an artist".
Charles' comments touch on so many contemporary issues, including the devaluing of vocational crafts and trades. When my main activity was sculpture-making I was engaged as Artist in Residence at a number of sites. The attitude of the public to someone working physically was a jeering disbelief that anyone who could string words together or had an education would work manually. I worked as a public sculptor in Bolton in Lancashire (cradle of the Industrial Revolution and of countless inventions which freed humanity from backbreaking toil and early death from exhaustion) where tilers, farriers, dry-stone-wallers........REAL builders and carpenters.........were on the dole whilst school-leavers were being signed up to Youth Opportunity Programmes and the likes where they were quick-marched through 12-week "trainings" (to massage the unemployment figures) and came out - reputedly - as carpenters, plumbers, tilers, brikkies etc.
There is a strange ambivalent attitude to physical work, to making things.
This, combined with the "You can be anything you want" (which usually implies "on the telly") is turning the UK into demoralised culture where realism, effort, competence have no place and fantasy rules.
The Prince of Wales is one of the few people (BECAUSE of his status!!!) who can articulate this.
I'm no monarchist and not defending The Prince of Wales (who can be just a tad overweening!) However in this case the spirit of his comments appears to have been lost whilst the pedantic "letter" (or memo!) remains.
He criticised the contemporary attitude that anyone can be anything. This is fostered by the Big Brother ethos of nonentities becoming t.v. personalities by dint of "just being themselves" (and talking c**p) and Political Correctness taken to extremes in denying innate differences between people......"All must have prizes". If so then does it matter, and isn't this attitude what creates ennui and disaffection in the yoof?
If kids can do/be anything they wish (because the standards are dropped to accommodate every brand of incompetence) what incentive is there to bother? I taught secondary-level pupils for over 10 years. Some were mighty talented but it was impossible to persuade them to study and develop skills (I was teaching fine art - painting and sculpture-making). One brilliant youngster whose work was accomplished and moving chose to leave school early and get a market-stall.......quick cash. "It takes too long to become an artist".
Charles' comments touch on so many contemporary issues, including the devaluing of vocational crafts and trades. When my main activity was sculpture-making I was engaged as Artist in Residence at a number of sites. The attitude of the public to someone working physically was a jeering disbelief that anyone who could string words together or had an education would work manually. I worked as a public sculptor in Bolton in Lancashire (cradle of the Industrial Revolution and of countless inventions which freed humanity from backbreaking toil and early death from exhaustion) where tilers, farriers, dry-stone-wallers........REAL builders and carpenters.........were on the dole whilst school-leavers were being signed up to Youth Opportunity Programmes and the likes where they were quick-marched through 12-week "trainings" (to massage the unemployment figures) and came out - reputedly - as carpenters, plumbers, tilers, brikkies etc.
There is a strange ambivalent attitude to physical work, to making things.
This, combined with the "You can be anything you want" (which usually implies "on the telly") is turning the UK into demoralised culture where realism, effort, competence have no place and fantasy rules.
The Prince of Wales is one of the few people (BECAUSE of his status!!!) who can articulate this.
Well he didn't articulate it very well so. I suppose he is his father's son... Most people simply, and reasonably in my view, interpreted his comments as basically and succinctly saying "know your place". He has since tried to backtrack from this to some extent. Thank goodness we at least have something approaching a meritocracy in this country and don't have pampered, cossetted, aristocratic oafs like this purporting to rule us under divine privilege! I mean - what have realism, effort and competence got to do with being a member of a monarchy for example? I guess that even people with a mere two A levels and a 2.2 in Archaeology and Anthropology feel qualified to criticise the way that the hoi polloi lead their lives and set the goals to which they aspire? :rolleyes
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XXXAnother PersonXXX
Guest
Isn't the contemporary attitude 'anyone can be anything with enough work and dedication'. Did we lose the last part somewhere?
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ajapale
Guest
or having the natural ability which is the same as saying that you are born with it.
Does any one have a working definition of child centered education? It seems to be one of those phrases on which you can hang your own ideological baggage depending on your position on the political spectum.
My understanding for what its worth is that it is the opposite of subject centered education or teacher centered education.
ajapale
Does any one have a working definition of child centered education? It seems to be one of those phrases on which you can hang your own ideological baggage depending on your position on the political spectum.
My understanding for what its worth is that it is the opposite of subject centered education or teacher centered education.
ajapale
M
MissRibena
Guest
I'm no fan of Prince Charles but I believe he's kinda right. I don't believe telling kids they can be anything they want is such a great idea. Being successful isn't just about ability and hard work, there are lots of other factors, some are factors society should (and is to an extent) strive to change such as social class and networking (job for the boys etc) and gender stereotyping. Other factors are facts of life; by definition "the top" is a small place, so only a few people reach it regardless of how many talented hardworkers there are. Getting there often takes a particular personality traits which are not necessarily present in the people with the capabilities. And there is a certain luck factor that is outside people's control.
I think selling people the idea that we can be anything and change anything leads to a lot of the ills that we see in society nowadays; the rise in depression, the obsession with youth and the individual. Our expectations of our lives, our bodies, our partners etc. are too high and are bound to be dashed. People are not satisified with being cogs in the wheel and feel a failure or dissatisfied when they inevitablly realise that this is exactly all we are; even the most "important" or "successful" of us.
Greater acceptance of what we are, where we are and who we are would probably make us all a lot happier. I know people worry that this attitude will mean that the rich/powerful will take control and prevent people from achieving their potential, but I just don't buy it. I believe the truly capable will out, no matter what and the rest of us would be better of getting on with it.
Alain de Botton had a programme and book about this not too long ago but it was only a rehashing of old philosophies really.
Rebecca
I think selling people the idea that we can be anything and change anything leads to a lot of the ills that we see in society nowadays; the rise in depression, the obsession with youth and the individual. Our expectations of our lives, our bodies, our partners etc. are too high and are bound to be dashed. People are not satisified with being cogs in the wheel and feel a failure or dissatisfied when they inevitablly realise that this is exactly all we are; even the most "important" or "successful" of us.
Greater acceptance of what we are, where we are and who we are would probably make us all a lot happier. I know people worry that this attitude will mean that the rich/powerful will take control and prevent people from achieving their potential, but I just don't buy it. I believe the truly capable will out, no matter what and the rest of us would be better of getting on with it.
Alain de Botton had a programme and book about this not too long ago but it was only a rehashing of old philosophies really.
Rebecca
I think that there's a big difference between opening people's horizons and minds to all sorts of realistic possibilities and inculcating a mindset that induces status anxiety. Of more concern to me is the tendancy of many people (including Charlie) to feel the need to become apologetic for the situation in which we find ourselves today and to hark after supposedly "simpler" times which were somehow better for us. (A variation on the romantic "poor but happy" idea). Not everybody grows up wanting to be a presenter on the telly or a member of a boy/girl band but so what if some do? Why is this to be frowned upon compared to making fine art, throwing pots or waiting in line for the throne? :\
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Blue Blaa
Guest
[broken link removed]
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Marie
Guest
"What is wrong with people nowadays? - PC
He was making an entirely different point — that the education system encouraged people to think they could achieve anything they wanted, without having to earn it or accept that not everyone could do everything.
Indeed, the idea that he is against people bettering themselves is demonstrably absurd. As he is to say today, he has devoted much of his public life to providing improved opportunities for disadvantaged youths. He is angry at the education system precisely because such people have seen their life chances destroyed by an approach that no longer provides them with the means to rise out of disadvantage
BlueBlaa - thank you for this link. THAT
He was making an entirely different point — that the education system encouraged people to think they could achieve anything they wanted, without having to earn it or accept that not everyone could do everything.
Indeed, the idea that he is against people bettering themselves is demonstrably absurd. As he is to say today, he has devoted much of his public life to providing improved opportunities for disadvantaged youths. He is angry at the education system precisely because such people have seen their life chances destroyed by an approach that no longer provides them with the means to rise out of disadvantage
BlueBlaa - thank you for this link. THAT
M
Marie
Guest
"What is wrong with people nowadays? - PC
(continued)
BlueBlaa - thanks for the link. THAT is what I understood Charles to be saying.
The repercussions of the "you are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars/You have a right to be here" (and can be whatever you like, without trying or investing effort) approach is a fantasy world where nothing works and the human propensity for forming meaningful hierarchy (anthropologists know all about this......my background is anthropology!!!) is subverted.
The Political Correctness gone-wild of the UK education system repeatedly drops standards giving the illusion that the present Labour Government's commitment to "education, education, education" is working.
People using their heads and enjoying their unique abilities, with respect for themselves and their contributions whether they are monarchs-in-waiting or carpenters has been replaced by manualisations and audit and ridiculous rituals containing the anxiety of gross dependency.
Charles made a right hash of things in his efforts to retract but the attacks were based upon a PRIVATE memorandum! I feel strongly that one thing education should impart is courtesy and respect for the rights of others and a commitment to NOT abuse privileged access to information and knowledge.
I take heart in the news that Ireland is a meritocracy and none of this nonsense goes on there.
(continued)
BlueBlaa - thanks for the link. THAT is what I understood Charles to be saying.
The repercussions of the "you are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars/You have a right to be here" (and can be whatever you like, without trying or investing effort) approach is a fantasy world where nothing works and the human propensity for forming meaningful hierarchy (anthropologists know all about this......my background is anthropology!!!) is subverted.
The Political Correctness gone-wild of the UK education system repeatedly drops standards giving the illusion that the present Labour Government's commitment to "education, education, education" is working.
People using their heads and enjoying their unique abilities, with respect for themselves and their contributions whether they are monarchs-in-waiting or carpenters has been replaced by manualisations and audit and ridiculous rituals containing the anxiety of gross dependency.
Charles made a right hash of things in his efforts to retract but the attacks were based upon a PRIVATE memorandum! I feel strongly that one thing education should impart is courtesy and respect for the rights of others and a commitment to NOT abuse privileged access to information and knowledge.
I take heart in the news that Ireland is a meritocracy and none of this nonsense goes on there.
A
ajapale
Guest
Re: "What is wrong with people nowadays? - PC
Many in the British Media are conveniently forgetting about the second phrase in PC's memo (the bit about natural ability).
Does he mean that if a Prince does not have the natural ability he should not be educated in such a way as to suggest that he might be King someday?
ajapale
Many in the British Media are conveniently forgetting about the second phrase in PC's memo (the bit about natural ability).
Does he mean that if a Prince does not have the natural ability he should not be educated in such a way as to suggest that he might be King someday?
ajapale
B
Blue Blaa
Guest
EXam for 11 year olds
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
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XXXAnother PersonXXX
Guest
Re: EXam for 11 year olds
Most kids these days would find the answers to those questions off the internet. I wonder how many kids of 1898 knew what 'googling' meant? - They bearly knew what electricity was back then! - never mind how to enable all the zones on a DVD player.
Another interesting point, back then such education was a preserve of the rich (like royalty) Now everyone gets some kind of chance, in Ireland anyway. I'd rather current standards.
I wonder what a paper for 2098 kids would look like? (I thought that paper was too easy)
Most kids these days would find the answers to those questions off the internet. I wonder how many kids of 1898 knew what 'googling' meant? - They bearly knew what electricity was back then! - never mind how to enable all the zones on a DVD player.
Another interesting point, back then such education was a preserve of the rich (like royalty) Now everyone gets some kind of chance, in Ireland anyway. I'd rather current standards.
I wonder what a paper for 2098 kids would look like? (I thought that paper was too easy)
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Marie
Guest
EXam for 11 year olds
Children know where to search for information and take I.T. in their stride simply because it's part of the world culture into which they've been born.
Is that superior to being able to use the Dewey Decimal System - probably the most intelligent referencing system ever devised - which used to be the route to anything you wanted to know in the public libraries, which in their turn were intelligently stocked, quiet places where you could think and not the after-school crisp-muching club replete with a dozen mobile phones?
A news item a few days ago reveals that younger people are not drawn to darts as a recreational game. Why? They can't do the basic mental arithmetic required to keep score.
So - have things "improved" or are they simply "different"?
Children know where to search for information and take I.T. in their stride simply because it's part of the world culture into which they've been born.
Is that superior to being able to use the Dewey Decimal System - probably the most intelligent referencing system ever devised - which used to be the route to anything you wanted to know in the public libraries, which in their turn were intelligently stocked, quiet places where you could think and not the after-school crisp-muching club replete with a dozen mobile phones?
A news item a few days ago reveals that younger people are not drawn to darts as a recreational game. Why? They can't do the basic mental arithmetic required to keep score.
So - have things "improved" or are they simply "different"?
Re: EXam for 11 year olds
Is that superior to being able to use the Dewey Decimal System - probably the most intelligent referencing system ever devised - which used to be the route to anything you wanted to know in the public libraries, which in their turn were intelligently stocked, quiet places where you could think and not the after-school crisp-muching club replete with a dozen mobile phones?
They still are by the way - although I suspect that many librarians themselves don't know how to use the Dewey Decimal System judging by the way that the books are stocked in many of the libraries that I visit!
A news item a few days ago reveals that younger people are not drawn to darts as a recreational game. Why? They can't do the basic mental arithmetic required to keep score
Ah - darts - the sport of champions. We used to regularly go on the hop from secondary school and play it for the afternoon. At least I don't feel so guilty now that I realise that we were actually engaging in some extra mural mathematics tutorials! I bet even Prince Charles wouldn't know what a nine dart finish was!
Is that superior to being able to use the Dewey Decimal System - probably the most intelligent referencing system ever devised - which used to be the route to anything you wanted to know in the public libraries, which in their turn were intelligently stocked, quiet places where you could think and not the after-school crisp-muching club replete with a dozen mobile phones?
They still are by the way - although I suspect that many librarians themselves don't know how to use the Dewey Decimal System judging by the way that the books are stocked in many of the libraries that I visit!
A news item a few days ago reveals that younger people are not drawn to darts as a recreational game. Why? They can't do the basic mental arithmetic required to keep score
Ah - darts - the sport of champions. We used to regularly go on the hop from secondary school and play it for the afternoon. At least I don't feel so guilty now that I realise that we were actually engaging in some extra mural mathematics tutorials! I bet even Prince Charles wouldn't know what a nine dart finish was!
M
Marie
Guest
EXam for 11 year olds
ClubMan - Ahhh pub darts! Symbol of escape from parental prohibitions, the all-in-one social scene, the thrill of competition, the skill of the throw which involved every muscle of the body, the Zen of concentration (especially as the night and the alcohol-level advanced!). It appears from the newsitem it's "in eclipse". Pity.
ClubMan - Ahhh pub darts! Symbol of escape from parental prohibitions, the all-in-one social scene, the thrill of competition, the skill of the throw which involved every muscle of the body, the Zen of concentration (especially as the night and the alcohol-level advanced!). It appears from the newsitem it's "in eclipse". Pity.