What a bunch of morons

[wavejumper]

as someone who never got paid overtime but works plenty of it, nor time in lieu, who started off working at a pittance (training contract), where you do what needs to be done and no-one whips out their employment contract to whine that its not in their job description, all this stuff is staggering.

Am I being exploited?, no. I'm in a profession and, at this stage, am well paid, but I worked just as hard when I was on buttons. I abhor this trade union mentality - people who need to be seen to doing something to back the workers - they live an a parallel universe inhabited but 'fat cat' greedy employers exploiting workers. They should be told to roll the clock forward from 1913. Workers are not "entitled" to jobs, they are lucky if they have them. If employers have it so good why dont "exploited" workers go into business themselves??

With the amount of labour law on the books at the moment there is absolutely no positive role to be played by Trade Unions any longer, labour law protects workers, Trade Unions ruin the economy's competitiveness.

excellent post, completely agree.

 

[bullbars]

If I was one of those German officials I would jump at the opportunity to get out of this country. Don't know anything about this Company but assume they pay well. Will they be marching down O'Connell Street this week-end?

Between Oldtimer and Betsy Og, the nail has been firmly hit square on the head on this one!

I'd say the board of that company and indeed many other similiar foreign companies have the world map out right about now wondering where they will shift operations to when they shut the Irish plant down.
I used to work overtime when required but wasnt paid for it. But there was give and take, If I needed a day off for a wedding etc. nothing was said and I wasnt docked wages.

 

[thedaras]

Rotten fruit at the ready Aim for the first person to mention 'Congress'

I have my rotten tomatoe at the ready...

 

[gillarosa]

What makes them Moron's?
Their Employer put a proposal to them in regard to a change in the working arrangement regarding shifts. It was rejected, the Workers Representatives have proposed that the LC become involved, its called negotiation. The Employer (many believe) are using the current economic climate as a weapon to bring in working patterns which have been rejected before. Working patterns that most of us would not be happy to work under in any Industry, for example to work a 7 day week if the Company dictates from May - October and bank time rather than be paid for all of it so you can be paid for the time the Employer decided they don't need you in situ for example February, what would you do for a month in February if you have a normal family life you can't up sticks and follow the sun as the kids are in School, can't do anything in the garden because its lashing rain outside, hey can't even go golfing with the LC Judges as a poster suggested some do. For those of you logging on here during your working day, whinging about not getting paid for overtime you need to put in to possibly catch up with the work you haven't completed because you have been on-line its actually comical.
Two posters claim to know the same carricature of a Unionised Worker in there and have certain knowledge of the situation, if they actually did they would have real fact about the situation rather than the BS they posted about Redundancy, that is not the aim of the rejection of the proposal.

 

[Betsy Og]

What makes them Moron's?
For those of you logging on here during your working day, whinging about not getting paid for overtime you need to put in to possibly catch up with the work you haven't completed because you have been on-line its actually comical.
quote]

talk about missing the point, the point is that we are not whinging, we dont whinge, we dont pay somebody to whinge on our behalf. But if you're happy to allow yourself be talked out of a job then fair enough

 

[shanegl]

The Employer (many believe) are using the current economic climate as a weapon to bring in working patterns which have been rejected before.

Probably because their union reps have been putting that nonsense in their heads.

If and when the company shuts down, they'll probably still be spouting the mantra that this was a "profitable" company and that head office are "greedy fatcats", all the while expecting the government to come in with some sort of bailout for them.

In these sort of situations, what you'll never hear these people admit is that their own entrenched militancy contributed to the end of their employment.

 

[Complainer]

Wow, so many chips on shoulders here in this thread, I feel a craving for a smoked cod coming on.

The reality of course is that the $40m investment is being waved around in the background as a carrot, but is not on the negotiating table. It is a possibility, but it is not on the table in the current negotiations.

So take that away, and see how the big picture suddenly changes.

 

[zxcvbnm]

So what exactly happened here?

The crowd in germany told teh workers that unlessthe staff agree to some work practices they would move ya?

The staff voted against teh new work practices and the germans said that they were off so.

Is that the crux of it?

 

[DonDub]

Wow, so many chips on shoulders here in this thread, I feel a craving for a smoked cod coming on.

The reality of course is that the $40m investment is being waved around in the background as a carrot, but is not on the negotiating table. It is a possibility, but it is not on the table in the current negotiations.

So take that away, and see how the big picture suddenly changes.

The stark reality is that Ireland is a high cost location, for virtually everything - living,working,marrying,manufacturing, and dying.

There are endless examples of unions pushing employers to the brink, again and again, and when a company eventually reaches the end of its tether - the unions queue up to call for rescue plans, political intervention, or the Labour Court, to save the day.

SR technics might still be operating if the unions hadn't made the implementation of change painfully slow and expensive, over many years.
No company can defy the laws of the market-place, if you can't compete, you die.....it's that simple.....

 

[Caveat]

Wow, so many chips on shoulders here in this thread, I feel a craving for a smoked cod coming on.

The reality of course is that the $40m investment is being waved around in the background as a carrot, but is not on the negotiating table. It is a possibility, but it is not on the table in the current negotiations.

So take that away, and see how the big picture suddenly changes.

How exactly? Whatever the conditions/circumstances there was still a vote was there not?

 

[Pique318]

She said: “We warned management during 12 hours of talks at the Labour Relations Commission on Monday that further engagement was necessary if we were to reach an agreement that production workers at the plant would buy into.
“Management insisted on putting the proposals in their present form to the workforce and the result was rejection. The obvious thing now is to re-engage.”

"We warned management" ???


So the unions are finally being played at their own game and the companies are calling their bluff ? About bloody time !!

 

[Complainer]

The stark reality is that Ireland is a high cost location, for virtually everything - living,working,marrying,manufacturing, and dying.

There are endless examples of unions pushing employers to the brink, again and again, and when a company eventually reaches the end of its tether - the unions queue up to call for rescue plans, political intervention, or the Labour Court, to save the day.

There are two sides to every story. For every 'union pushing employers to the brink', there are the 'employers pushing employees to the brink'. For every employer struggling to deal with the high-cost location, there are many employees struggling to deal with the high-cost of location, and put/keep a roof over their families head.

How exactly? Whatever the conditions/circumstances there was still a vote was there not?

Indeed, there was a vote. But it wasn't a vote on accepting the $40m investment. The $40m investment wasn't on the table for this vote. It was the PR spin waving around in the background.

I don't know enough about this issue to make a sensible comment about the vote itself. Most of those who jump on the 'morons' bandwagon appear to know even less then me.

 

[DublinTexas]

For those of you logging on here during your working day, whinging about not getting paid for overtime you need to put in to possibly catch up with the work you haven't completed because you have been on-line its actually comical.

How would you know what my working times are? Just because I post during 9 to 5 you assume it's working hours for me? Not to mention that I don't get overtime.

The Employer (many believe) are using the current economic climate as a weapon to bring in working patterns which have been rejected before.

This is another one of the lines straight out of the playbook of "congress", this is getting old. Sure some employers do actualy try this but not all of them. So to use this in every time a company tries to do a minor change is just watering this argument down.

Two posters claim to know the same carricature of a Unionised Worker in there and have certain knowledge of the situation, if they actually did they would have real fact about the situation rather than the BS they posted about Redundancy, that is not the aim of the rejection of the proposal.

I can not comment to the validity of the poster but your premise that the rejection of the proposal is not redundancy is just wrong. They must have known that if they reject to move on overtime that the employer has a possibility to move these jobs. And while I not advocate that they should take what ever the employer asks them to do (in a kind of blackmail) the request of the employer here and the larger implications (added new investment) is not so big that you should risk a shut down of the company.

If I would be Lufthansa I would close the plant and move it to Germany where while the workers there sometimes also go on strike overall there is a working social partnership with responsible unions and employers and the I can use existing resources to merge with this arm of the organisation.

 

[Purple]

There are two sides to every story.

So what are the two sides here? You admit that you know bugger all about this but you still see fit to treat us to 1920’s style class warfare gibberish.

For every 'union pushing employers to the brink', there are the 'employers pushing employees to the brink'. For every employer struggling to deal with the high-cost location, there are many employees struggling to deal with the high-cost of location, and put/keep a roof over their families head.

What evidence do you have that “For every 'union pushing employers to the brink', there are the 'employers pushing employees to the brink'”?... or is that just a flight of fancy based on nothing more than upper-middleclass socialist angst and a resentment of those that actually employ “the poor” and give them more than empty rhetoric?
Let’s for a moment suppose that you are correct and “For every employer struggling to deal with the high-cost location, there are many employees struggling to deal with the high-cost of location, and put/keep a roof over their families head” So people should be paid what they need to sustain their lifestyle rather than in accordance with the value of their input/labour? The rest of the free world gave up on such absurd notions a few generations back.
If an employee is not getting a fair wage for their work then they can move to a different job. If what they consider to be a fair wage is not available in the market place then their expectations are unrealistic.
You, like so many socialists, are confusing where the core social responsibility to engineer a just society lies. It is up to the people, through their government, to use the taxation system to redistribute wealth in society. If people are struggling financially why should their employer pay them a wage that they do not deserve and cannot justify which will make the business unviable in the medium term?

Indeed, there was a vote. But it wasn't a vote on accepting the $40m investment. The $40m investment wasn't on the table for this vote. It was the PR spin waving around in the background.

There was no PR spin; the €40 million has been on the cards for many months. In case you hadn’t noticed there is a recession at the moment and air travel suffers during a recession. Jet engine overhaul is scheduled based on the hours each engine has been in use. Therefore when fewer planes fly fewer engines need to be overhauled. (5th year economics bit) When supply is greater than demand there is a downward pressure on price. If you don’t believe me have a walk around Dundrum shopping centre and look at all the sales.
Anyway, back to the morons in question; they were too expensive in the boom and the sure as shinola are too expensive now. They are morons if they can’t see this, they are morons if they can’t see that their jobs are at stake and they are morons if they think a government and a people that are facing our biggest crisis since the foundation of the state have any apatite to help people who act in a moronic and self-destructive manner.

I don't know enough about this issue to make a sensible comment about the vote itself. Most of those who jump on the 'morons' bandwagon appear to know even less then me.

You’re half right there.

 

[DonDub]

So what are the two sides here? You admit that you know bugger all about this but you still see fit to treat us to 1920’s style class warfare gibberish.
What evidence do you have that “For every 'union pushing employers to the brink', there are the 'employers pushing employees to the brink'”?... or is that just a flight of fancy based on nothing more than upper-middleclass socialist angst and a resentment of those that actually employ “the poor” and give them more than empty rhetoric?
Let’s for a moment suppose that you are correct and “For every employer struggling to deal with the high-cost location, there are many employees struggling to deal with the high-cost of location, and put/keep a roof over their families head” So people should be paid what they need to sustain their lifestyle rather than in accordance with the value of their input/labour? The rest of the free world gave up on such absurd notions a few generations back.
If an employee is not getting a fair wage for their work then they can move to a different job. If what they consider to be a fair wage is not available in the market place then their expectations are unrealistic.
You, like so many socialists, are confusing where the core social responsibility to engineer a just society lies. It is up to the people, through their government, to use the taxation system to redistribute wealth in society. If people are struggling financially why should their employer pay them a wage that they do not deserve and cannot justify which will make the business unviable in the medium term?

There was no PR spin; the €40 million has been on the cards for many months. In case you hadn’t noticed there is a recession at the moment and air travel suffers during a recession. Jet engine overhaul is scheduled based on the hours each engine has been in use. Therefore when fewer planes fly fewer engines need to be overhauled. (5th year economics bit) When supply is greater than demand there is a downward pressure on price. If you don’t believe me have a walk around Dundrum shopping centre and look at all the sales.
Anyway, back to the morons in question; they were too expensive in the boom and the sure as shinola are too expensive now. They are morons if they can’t see this, they are morons if they can’t see that their jobs are at stake and they are morons if they think a government and a people that are facing our biggest crisis since the foundation of the state have any apatite to help people who act in a moronic and self-destructive manner.
You’re half right there.

Purple, I couldn't agree more.

By the way, can anyone remember reading about a union proactively engaging with management to ensure the future survival a company with a view to preserving jobs - I certainly haven't. They seem to see their sole purpose is to resist, delay and obfuscate -to seek more, for doing less.
Unions ,dare I say it, could be proactive -seeking to understand the commercial realities within which particular companies operate. By taking this approach, we could see 'real' partnership emerge, as against the 'phoney' version we have now.
This 'real' approach would surely create conditions for long term sustainable growth and employment.
Unfortunately, the chances of unions changing their approach is probably less than zero - and if so, they deserve to be consigned to the dustbin of history!!

 

[thedaras]

So what are the two sides here? You admit that you know bugger all about this but you still see fit to treat us to 1920’s style class warfare gibberish.
What evidence do you have that “For every 'union pushing employers to the brink', there are the 'employers pushing employees to the brink'”?... or is that just a flight of fancy based on nothing more than upper-middleclass socialist angst and a resentment of those that actually employ “the poor” and give them more than empty rhetoric?
Let’s for a moment suppose that you are correct and “For every employer struggling to deal with the high-cost location, there are many employees struggling to deal with the high-cost of location, and put/keep a roof over their families head” So people should be paid what they need to sustain their lifestyle rather than in accordance with the value of their input/labour? The rest of the free world gave up on such absurd notions a few generations back.
If an employee is not getting a fair wage for their work then they can move to a different job. If what they consider to be a fair wage is not available in the market place then their expectations are unrealistic.
You, like so many socialists, are confusing where the core social responsibility to engineer a just society lies. It is up to the people, through their government, to use the taxation system to redistribute wealth in society. If people are struggling financially why should their employer pay them a wage that they do not deserve and cannot justify which will make the business unviable in the medium term?

There was no PR spin; the €40 million has been on the cards for many months. In case you hadn’t noticed there is a recession at the moment and air travel suffers during a recession. Jet engine overhaul is scheduled based on the hours each engine has been in use. Therefore when fewer planes fly fewer engines need to be overhauled. (5th year economics bit) When supply is greater than demand there is a downward pressure on price. If you don’t believe me have a walk around Dundrum shopping centre and look at all the sales.
Anyway, back to the morons in question; they were too expensive in the boom and the sure as shinola are too expensive now. They are morons if they can’t see this, they are morons if they can’t see that their jobs are at stake and they are morons if they think a government and a people that are facing our biggest crisis since the foundation of the state have any apatite to help people who act in a moronic and self-destructive manner.
You’re half right there.

Wow Purple!! What an incredible,sensible insight.
Wish we had people like you in govenment.
Agree with everything you say..well done

 

[thedaras]

Purple, I couldn't agree more.

By the way, can anyone remember reading about a union proactively engaging with management to ensure the future survival a company with a view to preserving jobs - I certainly haven't. They seem to see their sole purpose is to resist, delay and obfuscate -to seek more, for doing less.
Unions ,dare I say it, could be proactive -seeking to understand the commercial realities within which particular companies operate. By taking this approach, we could see 'real' partnership emerge, as against the 'phoney' version we have now.
This 'real' approach would surely create conditions for long term sustainable growth and employment.
Unfortunately, the chances of unions changing their approach is probably less than zero - and if so, they deserve to be consigned to the dustbin of history!!

Excellent post dondub,would you and purple start a new policital party.please!!agree with you 100 %

 

[Complainer]

Excellent post dondub,would you and purple start a new policital party.please!!agree with you 100 %

Excellent idea - a hard-right party in Ireland. Why didn't anyone think of this before. It is bound to attract overwhelming support. Maybe you should call it, oooh let's see, how about the 'Progressive Democrats'?

 

[Purple]

Excellent idea - a hard-right party in Ireland. Why didn't anyone think of this before. It is bound to attract overwhelming support. Maybe you should call it, oooh let's see, how about the 'Progressive Democrats'?

More smoked salmon socialist nonsense. There hasn't been a hard right party in Ireland since the Blue Shirts. There is no rightwing party at the moment. The PD's were in favour of the welfare state (as I am) and so only someone who is blinded by discredited socialist ideology or allows their political bias to overwhelm their rationality could describe them as a hard-right party.

 

[circle]

By the way, can anyone remember reading about a union proactively engaging with management to ensure the future survival a company with a view to preserving jobs - I certainly haven't.

This agreement between Mandate and Superquinn seems very progressive and sensible. Instead of engaging in protracted debate about the past (Dundalk store closure) the management, staff and union seem to be working well together for the best realistic shared outcome:
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0327/superquinn.html

It seems to me to be a template of how partnership should work in the wider economy.