Vincent Browne on the murder of a Garda.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Can we just stick to the question I asked - why do most of the inhabitants of Mountjoy come from a small number of Dublin postcodes.

I thought I had rather fully explained that, yes those who are relatively more deprived are more likely to turn to serious crime, yes we have unequal distribution of wealth in our society, parental inheritance of either the natural or cultural variety are important and yes in a free society we will inevitably have economic segregation in where people live.

What I am completely unsure of is what you are proposing to address these obvious realities.

Are you, for example, suggesting that postal code should be a mitigating circumstance before our courts and that we should target equal postal code representation in Mountjoy?

I note that the Title of my OP has been changed. But make no mistake that whilst Vinnie's article majored on a sympathetic take of some gangster who had been shot in a working class district of Bray, I was revolted when he finished up by including explicitly the murderer of the Garda in this exoneration.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Title edited to more fully reflect OP and discussion.

Vincent Browne: "Criminality is derived ..from the sordid inequality ..in our society".

I object to this editing of my title. I have no objection to VB indulging in puerile debate about society being to blame for all crime, I wouldn't stoop to indulge in a debate I gave up many years ago. What caused me to let off steam was that he pointedly cited the murder of a Garda as "proof" of his thesis on the very day that the Garda was being buried.

Please change my title back to "VB blames murder of Garda on society"

 

[Chris]

Question: Why do the majority of criminals come from a small number of deprived areas?

My answer:
1) The Welfare System
2) Education
3) Minimum Wage

We have an education system that fails to educate kids to a level that allows them to get a minimum wage job. When someone is employed for €x then the business owner has to get more than €x in productivity out of that person. Young people with no experience other than schooling have very little productivity and in many cases far less productivity than the minimum wage.

Then, those same young people will eventually fall into the welfare system that doesn't teach them any new skills to make them more productive, meaning that they are still not employable at the minimum wage. For many young people, the only solution they see is crime.

So, we have schools that fail to make young people productive enough to get a job at a government mandated minimum wage, and then they are given money for doing nothing. That is why the majority of criminals start out at a young age in deprived neighbourhoods.

This theory is perfectly backed up by the fact that the majority of criminals come from areas where the schools perform worst and that the majority of criminals start their criminal careers at a very young age when they are simply not employable at the minimum wage.

Now for an example:
Singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. It has no welfare system other than absolute minimum support, telling its people that planning for a rainy day is their own responsibility. It has no minimum wage and has a world leading school system.

So, there is the theory, the correlation of data and a successful example.

 

[Betsy Og]

Not saying I necessarily disagree with the overall point, but Singapore may not be the most representative place from which to use stats. Small island, high cost, high value, tough regime kind of place - I wouldnt be surprised if "problems" are exported out of there quick smart, so dunno if its experience can directly translate for a more broad based western society.

 

[Delboy]

...... yes we have unequal distribution of wealth in our society.....

an often trotted out 'fact' but it does'nt stand up according to Dan O'Brien in today's Irish Times
[broken link removed]

"Yesterday’s numbers show that Ireland registered a Gini coefficient of 31.1 in 2011. This is, as it happens, identical to the figure for the EU as a whole.

As Europe is by far the most equal part of the world and as Ireland is average in Europe, this makes Ireland an unusually equal country by global standards (it is emphatically not a very unequal society, as those who ignore the evidence sometimes declare with great certainty)."

 

[AgathaC]

i object to this editing of my title. I have no objection to vb indulging in puerile debate about society being to blame for all crime, i wouldn't stoop to indulge in a debate i gave up many years ago. What caused me to let off steam was that he pointedly cited the murder of a garda as "proof" of his thesis on the very day that the garda was being buried.

Please change my title back to "vb blames murder of garda on society"

+1.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

This article addresses why Singapore has low crime rates. One of the main reasons cited is legalised abortion. How? Because unwanted children are more likely to turn to crime. Not sure about that. By Irish standards casual abortion is akin to murder so in our law Singapore is much worse than us, but that is for another debate. It is also notable that Singapore has the highest execution rate in the world, that might be correlated to the low crime rate.

Everyone agrees that crime is more likely to source from lower income groups. (Chris has interesting theories why we have these groups, but does not dispute that they tend to source crime). All the Wiki stats show that, with for example huge levels of murder in Africa. Ireland is in fact quite low and Monaco is lowest of all at 0. So much for the bleeding obvious.

Now we also accept that in our free economies lower income groups tend to be concentrated in geographical areas. Again fairly bleeding obvious.

So that leads me to think that Complainer is asking these questions rhetorically for we all know the answers. So she must be making some point and the only point I can glean is that she agrees with Vinnie that society is to blame for the murder of a Garda. Perhaps she will clarify which point she is making.

 

[DerKaiser]

an often trotted out 'fact' but it does'nt stand up according to Dan O'Brien in today's Irish Times
[broken link removed]

"Yesterday’s numbers show that Ireland registered a Gini coefficient of 31.1 in 2011. This is, as it happens, identical to the figure for the EU as a whole.

As Europe is by far the most equal part of the world and as Ireland is average in Europe, this makes Ireland an unusually equal country by global standards (it is emphatically not a very unequal society, as those who ignore the evidence sometimes declare with great certainty)."

Good link Delboy.

 

[Chris]

Not saying I necessarily disagree with the overall point, but Singapore may not be the most representative place from which to use stats. Small island, high cost, high value, tough regime kind of place - I wouldnt be surprised if "problems" are exported out of there quick smart, so dunno if its experience can directly translate for a more broad based western society.

Yes it is a small island, country and state with a larger population than Ireland, with 5.3 million people. It is 100% urban, and crime rates throughout the world are highest in urban environments, so from that point of view they have a much tougher task at hand than other countries.

Singapore is also an extremely modern and free country, being number two on the index of economic freedom. So it is a very comparable place to the western world. I have personally visited and have friends who have emigrated there and I can tell you that it is by far the safest place I have ever been.

Now it does have some very draconian and bizarre laws and as Duke points out, it has one of the highest execution rates in the world. But if executions were a crime deterrent then over time there should be less, which has not happened in Singapore, or other countries that have the death penalty.

 

[Firefly]

Now it does have some very draconian and bizarre laws

This has got to be up there..

From the economist "The Stingy nanny"
http://www.economist.com/node/15524092

"Citizens are obliged to save for the future, rely on their families and not expect any handouts from the government unless they hit rock bottom. The emphasis on family extends into old age: retired parents can sue children who fail to support them."

 

[Betsy Og]

it has one of the highest execution rates in the world.

Just as a matter of interest, how many Singaporeans (??) were born there?, strikes me a kind of "transitory" place that talented people in Asia gravitate towards, or maybe did so in the past generation - so there might be a "natural selection" process going on at the entry gate.

Overall though its in Asia, populated primarily by Asians (kick me if its dumb that I should point that out), itg got a high execution rate, its totally urban .... I doubt the town councils are constantly debating motions whether to rename themselves "New Ireland".......

From a touristic point of view neighbouring Malaysia is great, Singapore itself wouldnt exactly rock my world.

 

[delgirl]

Yes it is a small island, country and state with a larger population than Ireland, with 5.3 million people. It is 100% urban, and crime rates throughout the world are highest in urban environments, so from that point of view they have a much tougher task at hand than other countries.

Singapore is also an extremely modern and free country, being number two on the index of economic freedom. So it is a very comparable place to the western world. I have personally visited and have friends who have emigrated there and I can tell you that it is by far the safest place I have ever been.

Fantastic place, lived there for 2 years and Ireland could learn a thing or two from them. Safest place I've ever lived - no problem walking in the city at any hour of the day or night as a lone female.

If Ireland had harsher penanties for ciminality, drug dealing and weapon possession, the majority of law-abiding citizens in Ireland would have more freedom and would feel safer in their own homes.

 

[Delboy]

....If Ireland had harsher penanties for ciminality, drug dealing and weapon possession, the majority of law-abiding citizens in Ireland would have more freedom and would feel safer in their own homes.

now, now.....don't be infringing on the rights of recalcitrant criminals to get 50+ chances to go straight...it's the middle classes fault in the 1st place that they actually committed crime #1

 

[celebtastic]

So, we have schools that fail to make young people productive enough to get a job at a government mandated minimum wage, and then they are given money for doing nothing. That is why the majority of criminals start out at a young age in deprived neighbourhoods.

Spot on.

One of the very first things this gubbernment did was to make matters far worse by jacking our minimum wage back up to the second highest level of any country in the OECD in PPP terms:


All this, whilst failing to grasp the opportunity to dramatically reduce welfare levels.

So we now have a society that pays young people up to €188 (plus all sorts of allowances) to sit at home with mammy watching telly all day.

There is something very very wrong in that.

We are doing our young people a disservice by disincentivising honest work

 

[ajapale]

I object to this editing of my title. I have no objection to VB indulging in puerile debate about society being to blame for all crime, I wouldn't stoop to indulge in a debate I gave up many years ago.

What caused me to let off steam was that he pointedly cited the murder of a Garda as "proof" of his thesis on the very day that the Garda was being buried.

Please change my title back to "VB blames murder of Garda on society"

Vincent Browne: Criminality is derived ..from the sordid inequality ..in our society.

Title changed back to original as requested by OP.

aj

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Vincent Browne: Criminality is derived ..from the sordid inequality ..in our society.

Title changed back to original as requested by OP.

aj

Thank you

 

[Chris]

Just as a matter of interest, how many Singaporeans (??) were born there?, strikes me a kind of "transitory" place that talented people in Asia gravitate towards, or maybe did so in the past generation - so there might be a "natural selection" process going on at the entry gate.

Overall though its in Asia, populated primarily by Asians (kick me if its dumb that I should point that out), itg got a high execution rate, its totally urban .... I doubt the town councils are constantly debating motions whether to rename themselves "New Ireland".......

From a touristic point of view neighbouring Malaysia is great, Singapore itself wouldnt exactly rock my world.

According to Wikipedia 2.91 million people were born in Singapore, keeping in mind that it has existed as an independent state only since 1965: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore
That's still plenty of people breeding potential criminals.

Yes, Malaysia has probably a lot more to offer tourists, but it is nowhere near as safe, or advanced or wealthy as Singapore. And both countries got their independence at the same time, and are made up of people that share the same cltural past.

And I'm not sure why the population being mainly Asian means that the state cannot be compared to other free countries, set up as constitutional republics, like in Europe.

 

[Deiseblue]

Spot on.

One of the very first things this gubbernment did was to make matters far worse by jacking our minimum wage back up to the second highest level of any country in the OECD in PPP terms:


All this, whilst failing to grasp the opportunity to dramatically reduce welfare levels.

So we now have a society that pays young people up to €188 (plus all sorts of allowances) to sit at home with mammy watching telly all day.

There is something very very wrong in that.

We are doing our young people a disservice by disincentivising honest work

Per the link you posted we are ranked 4th in terms of minimum wage levels or am I missing something ?

Young people who qualify aged between 18 & 21 living at home get €100 whilst those between 21 & 25 get € 144.

 

[celebtastic]

Per the link you posted we are ranked 4th in terms of minimum wage levels or am I missing something ?

In US$PPP (to strip out any differences in relative prices) only Luxembourg had a higher minimum wage than Ireland.

Luxembourg, Ireland, France and the Netherlands all had minimum wages in excess of €10 per hour.

We have the second highest level, out of the full list of 34 OECD members.

Young people who qualify aged between 18 & 21 living at home get €100 whilst those between 21 & 25 get € 144.

Still substantially higher than it should be.

Our nearest neighbour has dole payments of £56.25 for 18-24 year olds. This is the sort of level we should be bringing our welfare towards to encourage young people to get out there and start earning.

 

[Sunny]

In US$PPP (to strip out any differences in relative prices) only Luxembourg had a higher minimum wage than Ireland.

Luxembourg, Ireland, France and the Netherlands all had minimum wages in excess of €10 per hour.

We have the second highest level, out of the full list of 34 OECD members.





Still substantially higher than it should be.

Our nearest neighbour has dole payments of £56.25 for 18-24 year olds. This is the sort of level we should be bringing our welfare towards to encourage young people to get out there and start earning.

So if we cut our dole to UK levels, we will cure youth unemployment?? Why didn't anyone think of this before? The UK still has a youth unemployment rate of over 20% so why would we want to copy them? If you used Germany and their apprenticeship model, we could have a discussion but I guess it is easier to tar an entire generation of young people as lazy good for nothings who don't want anything more from life than earning €100 a week and living with mammy and daddy. All those young people emigrating are fools when you think what a easy life they could have here....