TSW: "Money to run the state must come from somewhere"

[Brendan Burgess]

Money to run State in years ahead must ‘come from somewhere’ - tax commission chair

Commission on Tax and Welfare chairwoman concedes no one wants to pay tax but money will have to be raised to meet rising costs

www.irishtimes.com

The exchequer needs to raise significantly more tax to support public services in the years ahead and “it has to come from somewhere”, according to Prof Niamh Moloney, who chaired the Commission on Tax and Welfare.​

Proposals in the report published this week were not intended for immediate implementation in the current budgetary cycle but were a guide for the next five to 15 years during which the State would require significant additional funding due to an ageing population, the green transition and other pressures, she said.

Asked about political criticism of some of the proposals, Prof Moloney said the report speaks for itself and she would encourage people to look at the report and consider its work in full. She said she hoped it would be a key contribution to the essential debate to come, which was essential to make the public finances more sustainable.

 

[T McGibney]

The revelation that the CEO of Threshold was a member of this Commisssion is the final nail in the coffin of its credibility as far as I'm concerned. It's alarming that such a body had no members specifically representing the taxpayer who is expected to stump up the cost of all the additional spending that its Chair envisages.

 

[jpd]

I wouldn't worry - the 547 page report will provide talking points for a few days, maybe weeks, and then will be archived somewhere never to be seen again.

The next government will commision a new report and that will provide light reading sometime in the future

 

[I'm Nobody]

She's wrong with her assertion, that nobody wants to pay tax.
I don't mind paying tax.
What I mind is If is not used in the right way and for the right reasons.

 

[Purple]

She's wrong with her assertion, that nobody wants to pay tax.
I don't mind paying tax.
What I mind is If is not used in the right way and for the right reasons.

I don't mind paying tax. I mind the taxes I pay being wasted. I mind the suffering and lives damaged because of that waste. I mind when people from State funded vested interest groups moan about not enough funding and the implication that's the reason there are people on trolleys in hospitals or kids not getting educational supports is because there's not enough money raised in taxes. That makes me angry.

 

[Zenith63]

The revelation that the CEO of Threshold was a member of this Commisssion is the final nail in the coffin of its credibility as far as I'm concerned. It's alarming that such a body had no members specifically representing the taxpayer who is expected to stump up the cost of all the additional spending that its Chair envisages.

How is it a revelation, the members are public knowledge and have been discussed on this site a number of times.

What kind of person would be right to represent taxpayers? Somebody from a tax firm maybe, a chartered tax advisor, senior exec from a private sector firm, somebody from an industry lobby group, somebody from the legal sector?

Members of the commission this year -

• Managing Director of a Tax Consulting firm
• Chartered Tax Advisor and immediate past President of the Irish Tax Institute
• CEO and Founder of Cilter Technologies
• Professor of Law in the Department of Law at the London School of Economics and Political Science
• Former Assistant Secretary at the Revenue Commissioners
• Manager of Policy, Planning and Government Relations with Enterprise Ireland
• Former Director of the European Commission
• Policy Officer at the Irish Environmental Network
• Chief Executive Officer of Threshold
• Co-director of the Nevin Economic Research Institute and an ICTU Nominee
• Director of Lobbying and Influence at Ibec
• Economist at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)
• Former Deputy Secretary at the Department of Social Protection

It's not a perfect list and I'm no fan of Irish charities, but it looks like a pretty good spread to me.

 

[T McGibney]

How is it a revelation, the members are public knowledge and have been discussed on this site a number of times.

It attracted mainstream media attention last week after negative comments from the Tánaiste. This site isn't exactly mass market.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

We don't have a taxpayer representative body in Ireland so it would be hard to find someone to represent the taxpayer. I think that tax advisors and consultants are the best proxy.

It's interesting that there were two objections from members of the Commission.

Rena Maycock objected to the increase in PRSI.

Tom McDonnell of NERI objected to recommendations that endorsed and supported low tax rates for businesses and high-earning individuals.

Two taxation commission members raised objections to some recommendations for changes

Letters from businesswoman Rena Maycock and trade union nominee Dr Tom McDonnell published with report

www.irishtimes.com

But they did very well to get such a diverse group to agree on such a comprehensive report.

Brendan

 

[Purple]

Members of the commission this year -

• Managing Director of a Tax Consulting firm
• Chartered Tax Advisor and immediate past President of the Irish Tax Institute
• CEO and Founder of Cilter Technologies
• Professor of Law in the Department of Law at the London School of Economics and Political Science
• Former Assistant Secretary at the Revenue Commissioners
• Manager of Policy, Planning and Government Relations with Enterprise Ireland
• Former Director of the European Commission
• Policy Officer at the Irish Environmental Network
• Chief Executive Officer of Threshold
• Co-director of the Nevin Economic Research Institute and an ICTU Nominee
• Director of Lobbying and Influence at Ibec
• Economist at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)
• Former Deputy Secretary at the Department of Social Protection

Only 3 from the private sector. IBEC is a Employer body for employers in the Unionised sector. I don't know anyone running a business who takes them seriously so their person doesn't count.

 

[T McGibney]

We don't have a taxpayer representative body in Ireland so it would be hard to find someone to represent the taxpayer. I think that tax advisors and consultants are the best proxy.

I'm not sure of your precise logic here Brendan. Tax consultants for example earn a crust from complexities in tax legislation, many of which are significantly prejudicial to individual taxpayers,

It's interesting that there were two objections from members of the Commission.

..
But they did very well to get such a diverse group to agree on such a comprehensive report.

I'd count only two objections as a sign of groupthink and a general unwillingness among members to rock boats.

 

[Purple]

Tom McDonnell of NERI objected to recommendations that endorsed and supported low tax rates for businesses and high-earning individuals.

I must have missed those recommendations.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Tommy

Who would you recommend that the Government should appoint to represent the ordinary taxpayer?

I offered my services, but was rejected. But then, I agree with most of the report anyway.

Brendan

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I must have missed those recommendations.

They endorsed a continuation of Ireland's low Corporation Tax rate.

They specified that they wanted increases in capital taxes and property taxes rather than taxes on income.

Brendan

 

[T McGibney]

Hi Tommy

Who would you recommend that the Government should appoint to represent the ordinary taxpayer?

Someone with no vested interest, Brendan. Perhaps a retired professional or business person with specialist insights. Retired economists Colm McCarthy, Sean Barrett and Moore McDowell would have been good choices.

 

[Zenith63]

IBEC is a Employer body for employers in the Unionised sector. I don't know anyone running a business who takes them seriously so their person doesn't count.

I'm involved in running a number of non-unionised businesses and find them quite useful actually. I also attend one of their councils along with people from Amazon, Google, IBM, Microsoft and other companies of all sorts of sizes. But anyway lets not quibble over one member, wasn't really my point.

 

[Purple]

I'm involved in running a number of non-unionised businesses and find them quite useful actually. I also attend one of their councils along with people from Amazon, Google, IBM, Microsoft and other companies of all sorts of sizes. But anyway lets not quibble over one member, wasn't really my point.

All the MNC's join. It's part of the process of moving here. It's mostly a PR exercise, part of their lobbying strategy. Anyway, we'll agree to differ.

 

[Purple]

They specified that they wanted increases in capital taxes and property taxes rather than taxes on income.

Increases in capital taxes and property taxes rather than taxes on income sounds like the sort of thing that socialists would be in favour of, not a propaganda outlet for representative groups of upper middle income earners though so I can understand why they were against it.

 

[joe sod]

How is it a revelation, the members are public knowledge and have been discussed on this site a number of times.

What kind of person would be right to represent taxpayers? Somebody from a tax firm maybe, a chartered tax advisor, senior exec from a private sector firm, somebody from an industry lobby group, somebody from the legal sector?

Members of the commission this year -

• Managing Director of a Tax Consulting firm
• Chartered Tax Advisor and immediate past President of the Irish Tax Institute
• CEO and Founder of Cilter Technologies
• Professor of Law in the Department of Law at the London School of Economics and Political Science
• Former Assistant Secretary at the Revenue Commissioners
• Manager of Policy, Planning and Government Relations with Enterprise Ireland
• Former Director of the European Commission
• Policy Officer at the Irish Environmental Network
• Chief Executive Officer of Threshold
• Co-director of the Nevin Economic Research Institute and an ICTU Nominee
• Director of Lobbying and Influence at Ibec
• Economist at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)
• Former Deputy Secretary at the Department of Social Protection

It's not a perfect list and I'm no fan of Irish charities, but it looks like a pretty good spread to me.

Well its not representative, they might have had prestigious roles in the past, they are not exactly experts because most were appointed to their roles, directors, public sector appointments etc.
However it was chosen and who decided on the "appointees" it had a very left wing slant, it was all taxation, taxation and no welfare reform. Because they were all in their own little echo chamber they didn't realise how obvious the bias in their report was., and Leo Varadker quipped that it looked like it was directly translated from the SF manifesto

 

[Brendan Burgess]

it had a very left wing slant

Are you saying that the report had a left wing slant or that the board had a left wing slant?

The board certainly hadn't.

• Managing Director of a Tax Consulting firm
• Chartered Tax Advisor and immediate past President of the Irish Tax Institute
• CEO and Founder of Cilter Technologies
• Professor of Law in the Department of Law at the London School of Economics and Political Science
• Former Assistant Secretary at the Revenue Commissioners
• Manager of Policy, Planning and Government Relations with Enterprise Ireland
• Former Director of the European Commission
• Policy Officer at the Irish Environmental Network
• Chief Executive Officer of Threshold
• Co-director of the Nevin Economic Research Institute and an ICTU Nominee
• Director of Lobbying and Influence at Ibec
• Economist at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)
• Former Deputy Secretary at the Department of Social Protection

 

[T McGibney]

Are you saying that the report had a left wing slant or that the board had a left wing slant?

The board certainly hadn't.

Hmmm.

• Managing Director of a Tax Consulting firm Political slant Unknown
• Chartered Tax Advisor and immediate past President of the Irish Tax Institute Political slant Unknown
• CEO and Founder of Cilter Technologies Political slant Unknown
• Professor of Law in the Department of Law at the London School of Economics and Political Science LSE - Probably Left Wing
• Former Assistant Secretary at the Revenue Commissioners Probably Left Wing - Add Revenue's admitted vested interest, per its own annual reports, in maximising tax take.
• Manager of Policy, Planning and Government Relations with Enterprise Ireland Political slant Unknown
• Former Director of the European Commission Definitely Left Wing
• Policy Officer at the Irish Environmental Network Definitely Left Wing
• Chief Executive Officer of Threshold Definitely Left Wing
• Co-director of the Nevin Economic Research Institute and an ICTU Nominee Definitely Left Wing
• Director of Lobbying and Influence at Ibec Political slant Unknown - probably soft right wing, possibly not
• Economist at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) Political slant Unknown - probably soft left wing
• Former Deputy Secretary at the Department of Social Protection Probably Left Wing