Ulster tracker removal letter from first active

sampeckinpah

Registered User
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hi brendan the letter of authority says in the opening paragraph that

WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THE FIXED RATE PERIOD AS SELECTED BY US ENDS,THE MORTGAGE WILL TRANSFER TO A STANDARD VARIABLE RATE MORTGAGE UNLESS WE REQUEST A NEW FIXED RATE OR TRANSFER THE MORTGAGE TO THE PREVAILING TRACKER MORTGAGE OFFERING AT THE TIME OF TRANSFER,
The bank has this document and has told the ombudsman that as tracker rates products were removed by the bank in 29 september 2008 that it is clear that this document does not guarantee that an tracker rate would be made available to complainant.The bank are now telling the ombudsmen that i never requested to have my mortgage transfer to an tracker despite telling my local branch i wanted to and writhing an letter of complaint to them .The only documents i ever sign with the bank are this and the Original loan offer which states that

AS THE LOAN TO VALUE IS LESS THAN OR EQUAL 100 PERCENT BUT GREATER THAN 80 PERCENT THE RATE OF INTEREST WILL NEVER BE HIGHER THAN THE ECB RATE PLUS 1.25 PERCENT
 

tvman

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172
It would be a cynical (but profitable) move for the banks who had sent out these letters to introduce a new tracker rate at, say ECB +10%. They could then offer you this of the SVR, knowing you'd have to opt for the SVR.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,833
OK

That is an interesting wording.

I think that UB could be expected to write to you setting out your options when the fixed rate period ended. Did they do so? Or did they just switch you to the SVR?


In another case, the Ombudsman has told AIB that the fact that they were not doing trackers any more, was not an argument.

From your first post

My fixed rate ended 2 months ago and ulster bank have put me on an 4.9% variable rate with no Possibility of an return to my tracker. i got my final response letter today
Even if the Ombudsman holds that it was up to you to proactively ask for a tracker, the fact that you asked for it so shortly after the term expired would suggest that you will get a tracker.
THE PREVAILING TRACKER MORTGAGE OFFERING AT THE TIME OF TRANSFER,
This could be the problem. You won't get back your very cheap tracker, but you should get a tracker cheaper than their current SVR.

Brendan
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,833
I brought this thread to the attention of Charlie Weston and , as it happens, he already has an article on it in tomorrow's Irish Independent. A broker has managed to get 13 of his clients their tracker back.

This is one for the Central Bank.

Brendan
 

sampeckinpah

Registered User
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tvman as some one who has been living on texco value oats for the past 6months,i put them in an blender and add water . I rang ulsterbank last week and told them i am thinking of declaring myself bankrupt , i was told that it would not be moral thing to do and how would it reflect on my character .I asked the said gentlemen what the difference in me going bankrupt and ulster bank receiving 16.5 billion from the british taxpayer.He told me it would take someone on an higher payscale to answer that.Before anyone point it outs this is my brothers laptop as before i went through the marp process i stopped my broadband in case the bank considered it a luxury i could not have.
 

sampeckinpah

Registered User
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12
hi brendan ulster bank did send me out an list of options with no tracker rates on it .I did not sign it and was put on there variable rate which is actually 51 euros more than the 5 year fixed rate i was on.
 

Dermot

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1,036
I am lucky enough to have all my trackers nailed down but I am disgusted that a lot of decent people are being put through hell by all the banks and mortgage outfits. I believe that this policy is being supported by the over paid head honchos in all of these institutions. There are too many instances over the past years where people were entitled to be offered a return to a tracker and were not. There has been an enormous amount of time spent in these institutions defending the indefensible and denying people their rights. The Financial Regulator should order all the banks to do an Audit of all the mortgages that could possibly be entitled to be on tracker and report the result to the regulator and the relevant mortgage holders. The banks have all the information that is needed of who is entitled to a Tracker after all the decision that have been made by the Ombudsman's office. If they find any grey areas they could refer the issues for guidance to the Ombudsman's office. There should be a penalty of €100,000 per mortgage payable to the government for every breach after the audit. All the CEO's are aware of what is going on in relation to fighting people on a case by case basis. They are also relying on the inertia of other mortgage holders who will not complian or challenge them.
 

wbbs

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1,453
This is a really puzzling case, the wording on that authority is unfamiliar to me even though I dealt with loads of these fixed rate cases. First Active stopped trackers in July 2008 but numerous people who had fixed before that date have reverted back to tracker on expiry of the fixed rates. It is also rubbish for UB to say it was not FA policy to phone people, computer listings were issued regularly for various campaigns and calls made continuously, switch to tracker, switch to fixed, whatever was wanted at the time but it certainly was policy to call customers.
 

sampeckinpah

Registered User
Messages
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hi brendan i wished i had your Confidence but in reality ulster bank are going to Squeeze very penny out of me until i give up .i email enda kenny a while back and asked who was running the country him or the banks and what was he going to do for people like me who are putting there mortgage before food ,the reply i got was the government was most Definenly running the show but UNFORTUNATELY as ulster bank was bailed out by britain there was nothing he could do for me.I am considering writing to david cameron as i now think that he do more for me than my own government.
 

Brendan Burgess

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,the reply i got was the government was most Definenly running the show but UNFORTUNATELY as ulster bank was bailed out by britain there was nothing he could do for me.
Sam - I would love to see that letter. Because they denied that they could do anything about the lending practices of PTSB either.
 

peteb

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1,641
Ulster Bank are generally relying on the definition of "Home Loan Rate" in the general conditions of the original contract and are insisting that the meaning of this is Standard Variable Rate.

They also tend to argue that the letter you got at the end of the fixed rate would not have offered a tracker because they didnt exist anymore. However depending on your original wording (and I'm not familiar with the First Active version) it would generally state you go back to the Home Loan Rate. If you had a tracker from the start as per the offer of advance, this is what you should be going back onto.

Just came out the other side of this argument after 6 months and following a decision from the FSO I have my tracker back from 2008.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,833
Just came out the other side of this argument after 6 months and following a decision from the FSO I have my tracker back from 2008.
Pete

Well done! It's great to hear of such successes.

There are thousands of UB customers in the same position, but they simply don't know that they were entitled to trackers. UB must be forced to review all these cases and fix them.

Can I suggest that you send your FSO decision into the Central Bank and suggest that they investigate UB for this.

Brendan
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,833
furthermore they said that it is important to note that it was not first active policy to contact customers and it considers that the relationship between bank and me does not owe fiduciary duties and instead the bank is entitled to act in its own financial interests. .
Hi sam

In case you need it, here is a contemporaneous report of First Active proactively calling a custmomer to get them off their tracker onto a fixed rate. You could try to contact him to back up your case.

It's quite an important issue. If you made your own decision to switch to a fixed rate and lost your cheap tracker, that is one thing. But if "an advisor" proactively called you to switch, then they were obliged to act in your best interests.

You could use this argument not just to get back a tracker at the prevailing rate, but to get back a tracker at the rate you originally agreed.

Brendan
 

sampeckinpah

Registered User
Messages
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did first active proacatively call me ? well this is what ulster bank has to say about it WE ARE UNABLE TO DETAIL THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE COMPLAINANTS DECISION TO AMEND THE INTEREST RATE OF HIS HOME LOAN BACK IN 2007.IN ADDITION WE HAVE NO RECORDS PERTAINING TO ANY TELEPHONE CONTACT MADE BETWEEN OUR AGENTS AND THE COMPLAINANT BACK IN 2007 GIVEN THIS WE ARE UNABLE TO IDENTIFY THE STAFF MEMBER WHO DEALT WITH THE COMPLAINANT WHEN HE DECIDED TO FIXED THE INTEREST RATE AND THEREFORE UNFORTUNATELY UNABLE TO YOUR REQUEST TO INTERVIEW SAID PERSON.THE COMPLAINANT WAS NOT ADVISED IF HE WAS REPRESENTED BY AN INDEPENDENT MORTGAGE ADVISER BACK IN 2007 THEREFORE WE ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO CONFIRM SAME.FURTHER IT MOST BE NOTED THAT THE AUTHORITY/ACKKNOWEDGEMENT FORMS WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE COMPLAINANT IN THE PRESENCE OF OUR STAFF MEMBERS AND THERFORE WE CONSIDER THAT WE WERE WERE ACTING AT ARMS LENGHT WITH THE BORROWER. IN SUCH CASES WE CONSIDER THAT THE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BANK AND THE COMPLAINANT DOES NOT OWE FIDUCIARY DUTIES AND INSTEAD THE BANK IS ENTITLED TO ACT IN ITS OWN FINANCIAL INTERESTS.THE BANK DID NOT OFFER ANY ADVICE TO THE COMPLAINANT WHEN HE OPTED TO AMEND THE INTEREST RATE OF HIS HOME LOAN ACCOUNT. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE BANK WAS NOT OBLIGED TO PROVIDE ANY SUCH ADVISE.
 

sampeckinpah

Registered User
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what is ulsters banks view on the meaning of an prevailing tracker mortgage? THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF THE TERM PREVAILING TRACKER MORTGAGE OUTLINED ON OUR DOCUMENTATION. HOWEVER THE TERM PREVAILING BY DEFINITION MEANS CURRENT E.G. THE PREVAILING OPTION. BACK IN 2007 WHEN THE COMPLAINANT OPTED TO AMEND THE INTEREST RATE OF HIS HOME LOAN THE TRACKER RATE PRODUCTS WERE WIDELY AVAILABLE AND THEREFORE THE TERM PREVAILING WAS USED IN OUR DOCUMENTATION.HOWEVER TRACKER RATES PRODUCTS WERE REMOVED BY THE BANK ON 29 SEPTEMBER 2008 AND THERE WERE NOT AVAILABLE AT THE TIME OF TRANSFER. IN ESSENCE THERE WAS NO PREVAILING (CURRENT) TRACKER MORTGAGE AVAILABLE TO THE COMPLAINANT IN APRIL 2012 WHEN THE FIXED INTEREST ENDED.
 

Gerard123

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Messages
294
Sam, thanks for the update. Can you please quote the EXACT paragraph immediately before the one you quoted earlier from the FA letter, if it is the same letter as mine it's also a key paragraph as it deals with "transfer" , i.e. the paragraph immediately preceding "WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THE FIXED RATE PERIOD AS SELECTED BY US ENDS,THE MORTGAGE WILL TRANSFER TO A STANDARD VARIABLE RATE MORTGAGE UNLESS WE REQUEST A NEW FIXED RATE OR TRANSFER THE MORTGAGE TO THE PREVAILING TRACKER MORTGAGE OFFERING AT THE TIME OF TRANSFER, ". Else is there a paragraph with the word transfer anywhere else in your letter?

Re the Bank saying they did not have details of calls/contacts - it is not reasonable to expect someone to necessarily have details of all calls, contacts, etc, it was not the nature of how one normally conducted business with banks historically. If you had an entitlement to a tracker there would be an onus on the bank to meet the conditions of what they agreed to and what you signed and from your info there appears a clear commitment for a tracker, as far as I can see. I doubt they can simply try and 'defeat' your entitlement through them stating they have no records of calls/contacts or seeking to 'pass the buck'. Given that you are still within the six year timeline I believe that the Bank's comments here are not an adequate justification to ignore your entitlements and I would be surprised if the Ombudsman will find in the banks favour simply by saying that there is no evidence of you contacting the bank back then timely. The Ombudsman would look at the overall situation.

Re what prevailing tracker means. Usual dictionary definitions of the word prevailing show it means ‘current’. So presumably current at the time of signing the letter to fix in 2007 is a proper interpretation, in the absence of very clear info or intentions otherwise by the bank, which should have been documented in your 2007 letter. That also appears a proper and fair interpretation in the context of the bank not providing trackers in later 2008.

From my experience be very careful in your communications, and get good advice unless you are very comfortable and knowledgeable in these areas. Even then talk to people who are more used to dealing with these types of issues.

I have gone to the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman has written back inviting me to attend mediation with the Bank. If that does not work or either party does not attend or there is no agreement via mediation, then the Ombudsman said they will progress to an Investigation.

Does anyone have any experience of mediation - is it a good option or how does it normally work in practice?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,833
Hi Gerard

I think it's probably a good idea to accept mediation. In practice, the banks reject it anyway, so it probably won't happen.

If the bank and you accept it, they might be able to mediate a quick solution.

Have you seen this thread where Padraig Kissane has won 11 cases out of 11 taken to the Ombudsman on UB trackers?

Brendan
 

Miakk

Frequent Poster
Messages
128
Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I am in the same position as Gerard123 and Sampeckinah re an FA tracker that I lost on fixing...new poster so can't seem to PM.

If either of you are still on the forum can you let me know whether you were successful in getting your tracker back in your respective cases?

Or indeed, if there is anyone who had the same scenario, particularly after signing that damned 2 page document to fix (which, interestingly, the bank has only recently told me they call a "tracker removal form"!!), I'd welcome your input/advice/shared experiences!
 
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