In time, I believe it will happen. Where the Brits go, we usually follow.
"The one million suckers who are paying for bailout have taken enough"
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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Why is there no change? Why if someone says no to €500 a week job is their €188 not cut by 10% and so on until €500 looks like a good option.
Why is the dole not related to what you paid in? If you earn €60000 a year & loss your job it will hit you a lot harder then someone on €24000 a years losing their job. Give a percentage and reduce it over time until that person gets a job.
As for medical card. Just set a percentage of income to pay for universal cover. Cap it at around €6000 a month with employer paying part of it.
There needs to be change for the better but also for the worse. A fair system is needed and PRSI, USC and all the other tax systems need to be stream lined. Sliding scale of tax paid by everyone after a bass payment is reached.
Why is the dole not related to what you paid in? If you earn €60000 a year & loss your job it will hit you a lot harder then someone on €24000 a years losing their job. Give a percentage and reduce it over time until that person gets a job.
As for medical card. Just set a percentage of income to pay for universal cover. Cap it at around €6000 a month with employer paying part of it.
There needs to be change for the better but also for the worse. A fair system is needed and PRSI, USC and all the other tax systems need to be stream lined. Sliding scale of tax paid by everyone after a bass payment is reached.
Gerry Canning
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................
Wow there Fella,
{majority are just wasters} !
Tell that to those who lost jobs in the recession,
Tell that to those who correctly took any job they could get since. Or those that left.
By your 50 (offer), you too are part of the problem, so stop throwing bricks !
If you know these {wasters} report them. You seem to (unlike me) know quite a few.
If you have ever been on welfare , it is NOT a good place, I hope you do not have to try it.
Medical cards probably apply to a lot of people on average wage.
If someone on average wage ain,t generally better off than Dole man, does that mean Mr Dole gets too much or is it Mr Worker gets too little ?
Walk in honest Dolemans path ie most before commenting as you did PLEASE.
You don't get any tax relief on pension contributions. Your tax is deferred until you receive the money as income.
I don't know how we can use the taxation system or the welfare system to change peoples mind set. The problem isn't welfare rates its that some people see no problem living off their fellow citizens while being able but unwilling to support themselves. Claiming welfare or disability when you are capable of working, even for the same or less money, is no different to insurance fraud or general theft. It's also no different to someone who works not paying their full taxes so if anyone posting here does the odd nixer for cash or is a doctor or solicitor who pockets some cash they are no different.
Some people say that they pay enough tax and so don't declare some income but paying your taxes ain't optional and cheating is cheating.
I think you have a chance with the people first coming onto the jobs market... If you have someone who was on welfare for X years, it starts to get very easy for them to get accustomed to that and rationalise it as an entitlement. Let's face it, would you want to hire someone who had been out of work for 5 years or longer, versus someone new to the jobs market? I've worked full time since I left college, I don't know what shape I'd be in returning to the workforce after several years out. Someone who never had a full time job coming into to the workforce after several years? There's a lot of bad habits you can pick up, and disclipining yourself to work in a call centre or stuck at a desk 9 to 5 would be a culture shock. Kudos to anyone who pulls it off.
I think we need to look at the incentives facing newcomers and focus efforts there. As for those who are 'accustomed' to it, I think UK style benefits cap is the way to go.
Gerry Canning
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odyssey06,
Like your comments.
As you suggest, it is all too easy to get downed/live in an entitlement/dependant mode.
As you suggest, it is (oddly) difficult to get back into work day discipline.
As you suggest, Kudos to those who manage to move from long term unemployment into the (drudgery?) of work place.
As you hint, why would employer employ a long -term doleman ?
The (CAP) sounds good but it needs managing. Unemployment seems to follow generations so we could end up in a worse social place ?
Not sure the Tories would be my poster boys on Welfare.
I am all for going after those who consciously work the system , but I think most unemployed want work and a way to get there.
Like your comments.
As you suggest, it is all too easy to get downed/live in an entitlement/dependant mode.
As you suggest, it is (oddly) difficult to get back into work day discipline.
As you suggest, Kudos to those who manage to move from long term unemployment into the (drudgery?) of work place.
As you hint, why would employer employ a long -term doleman ?
The (CAP) sounds good but it needs managing. Unemployment seems to follow generations so we could end up in a worse social place ?
Not sure the Tories would be my poster boys on Welfare.
I am all for going after those who consciously work the system , but I think most unemployed want work and a way to get there.
The other alternative is the citizens wages concept for all citizens, and scrapping of benefits. I assume the wage would be set at lower than current benefits level but by doing so it makes it easier for citizens to pickup work here and there as a 'topup'. I can see how it might work for New Zealand, I'm not sure how it could work for Ireland as part of the EU:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...itizens-wage-and-scrap-benefits-a6932136.html
I agree. Major to kudos to anyone who pulls this off. The longer someone is unemployed the more difficult it is to (a) get back into the jobs market and (b) get any job that's half decent in terms of pay and fulfillment. I think prevention here is the key. Especially regarding the young & able - they need to be pushed into working from the off - unemployment benefits should be so low that work the only option. If that means taking a minimum wage job and working 60 hours a week so be it. Better than sitting at home watching Sky anyways. Ultimately, people should stop continually looking for someone else (the taxpayer) from picking up the tab everytime and accept personal responsibility. As I have said many times before, those genuinely mentally or physically impaired should be very well looked after (I'd go as far as saying we should look after these people better than anywhere else). Everyone else should have to work.
Ronald Regan once said "the best social program is a job" and it's hard to argue with that.
JSA for those aged 18 to 24 without children is €100 per week increasing to €144 per week at age 25 which is so low that it surely motivates the majority to seek work whether it be in this country or abroad.
With the unemployment figures hovering around 9% & given the fact that the green shoots of the recovery are not shared equally on a regional basis makes the search for jobs a precarious business , I certainly wouldn't fancy looking for a job in Waterford currently !
The Working Time Act 1997 ensures that the working week for most employees cannot exceed 48 hours which I believe is a good thing.
With the unemployment figures hovering around 9% & given the fact that the green shoots of the recovery are not shared equally on a regional basis makes the search for jobs a precarious business , I certainly wouldn't fancy looking for a job in Waterford currently !
The Working Time Act 1997 ensures that the working week for most employees cannot exceed 48 hours which I believe is a good thing.
Thanks for that. Yes, at those levels, it does indeed look like work does pay...I don't envy anyone trying to make do on 100e a week and more importantly being longer & longer out of the workplace. Regarding prevention, this really needs to be hammered home to kids by their parents and at school - the (legal!) way to get on is to knuckle down at school and progress to 3rd level or get a decent trade. It simply has to be a plan for people.
I genuinely feel very sorry for those who have been in employment all their lives and are now out of work. It must be very demoralising for them in lots of ways. I don't see any easy fixes though - retraining takes time and you'll also be up against younger and cheaper competition. What's worse is that after paying so much tax for so long they are reduced to the same levels as those who have never worked. It's a disgrace as these people are much more likely to get back working at something / anything again in the future and be paying tax again.
The last group then are those who have never worked and have no intention either. They know every trick in the book too. They are a scourge on society. We all know the type, and if we're honest, we can more often than not spot them a mile away. It's all nice and PC to have pity on them, but just remember that part of the reason why you might on a hospital trolley or that your special needs teacher has had hours cutback are as a result of these freeloaders.
Work doesn't pay if you take account of rent supp and med cards, and especially college grants.
I know people who [rationally] choose welfare as a long-term choice, as they will save
uni fees = 3000 pa
grant = 5,915 pa
So if you have three kids, being on welfare while they are in college will mean a benefit of 90,000 approx.
No wonder people stay on welfare, while EU and non-EU migrants take up jobs.
I know people who [rationally] choose welfare as a long-term choice, as they will save
uni fees = 3000 pa
grant = 5,915 pa
So if you have three kids, being on welfare while they are in college will mean a benefit of 90,000 approx.
No wonder people stay on welfare, while EU and non-EU migrants take up jobs.
I agree with the rational bit - it makes sense. But of course it's wrong. It's means you & I are paying for their lifestyle choice, never mind the poor old lady on a hospital trolley.
Regarding the fees - these are means tested to protect the lower paid and rightly so - the more kids from disadvantage backgrounds going on to 3rd level and trades the better. Having said that, children don't exactly pop out of the womb with their Leaving Cert done! Parents have 17 or 18 years to get their you-know-what together. And anyway, what kind of example is that for a parent to send their kids to college whilst choosing to stay on the dole? Crazy.
I know my posts might seem a little harsher than usual, but to be honest, I'm nearly at a tipping point with all these muppets on the far left. You can see why they're so happy to stay in opposition throwing stones....they wouldn't have the spine for a real job themselves. And as somepoint pointed out during the election, they'd have to take off their socks to count to 20.
Those people are no different to people who rationally decide to live off the proceeds of crime. They are stealing from their fellow citizens.
Welfare for those who have never worked is charity from others. The problem, in part, is how we talk about entitlements and rights as if we have no duty to earn them.
Brendan Burgess
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But it's perfectly legal. It is not criminal.
Is it any different from aggressive tax avoidance by wealthy people? We are to blame if we design the system which tolerates this.
Brendan
inaquandert
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I agree with Odyssey06 pretty much in everything they.ve said - the big push has to be on getting young people to opt for work rather than languish on the Dole. The longer you are on it the harder it is to get off it. I do feel sorry though for some long term unemployed people who just can't get a job. I think also there was a problem years ago that many people drew Dole and worked on the side almost treating it like an entitlement to top up their income. They could do this because enforcement was lax and once you got it no one hardly ever looked at you again. Thankfully that's changed but now those people look like they have no work record and so can't get a job. I know they are at fault for doing this but it was society who enabled them. I also agree that the whole wealth of entitlements that families get should be capped. Society has created this problem and society must change it but I don't think I'll ever see a politician taking it on.
It's not perfectly legal; legally you can only accept dole if you are available for work. The problem is it's not possible to prove beyond a doubt that people are playing the system.
Morally it's exactly the same as stealing but personal integrity and such notions seem to be the preserve of fools.
Brendan Burgess
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Hi Purple
Let's clarify.
If a person is claiming the dole and doing nixers, that is a criminal offence.
If a person is unemployed but realises that he and his family are better off if he does not work, then that is not a criminal offence.
Brendan
Let's clarify.
If a person is claiming the dole and doing nixers, that is a criminal offence.
If a person is unemployed but realises that he and his family are better off if he does not work, then that is not a criminal offence.
Brendan
You can only claim dole if you are available for work. If you are not willing to work but say you are then you are claiming payments under false pretenses.
Hi Brendan,
I'm not sure of the legality aspect, but people who are "caught out" in various ways (not turning up for interviews etc) have their benefits stopped and I think we need more of this. Regarding aggressive tax avoidance, I think for many people this may seem equally (or even more) immoral. However, once it's legal then you can't really blame them - who in their right mind would voluntarily hand over more tax than they are required to? I do think however that as many of these tax loopholes should be closed off as possible, unless there is some benefit in keeping them they were are not privy to.
Brendan Burgess
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Purple
I agree with you that if someone is claiming Jobseekers, they should be assigned a job. They should not have a choice. If they don't take it, they lose their JSA.
But as we don't do that, then it's not criminal for the person to be choosy and not take a job unless it's perfect.
Brendan
I agree with you that if someone is claiming Jobseekers, they should be assigned a job. They should not have a choice. If they don't take it, they lose their JSA.
But as we don't do that, then it's not criminal for the person to be choosy and not take a job unless it's perfect.
Brendan
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