Taoiseach: "Possible ban on evictions during energy crisis"

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AlbacoreA said:
I get all that. But we didn't get here without people gaming the system. No smoke without fire etc. Even now we have frequent LLs on another forum giving out because they cant instantly evict someone from their house. As for the RTB the fine is often considered worth it by many. So its not a deterrent.

I agree we need to incentivize long term rentals. But its often the lack of LL protections that causes them to seek constant short term rentals. It what pushed many to AirBnB. The Govt and the usually lobby groups seem to miss or deliberately ignore this. I would be interested in how long the average LL stays in the business. I would expect for the majority it not a short term business.
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If you think the housing crisis is due to private landlords gaming the system I'm sorry but you are just wrong.

There are two discussions you are mixing up, one is how to solve a housing crisis and landlords rushing to leave the market recently, the other is tenants rights and bad landlord behaviour.

They are separate issues because, regardless of the behaviour of bad landlords - if they evict tenants and get tenants in at a higher rent for example, there is still one rental unit available in the big housing crisis picture. The small private landlords are at the cheaper end of the scale to the massive REITs that leave a place empty for months rather than accepting a rent lower than the max they think they can get, that is probably a bigger issue in terms of vacant units to be honest, or the fact that people with long term tenants that leave are leaving their place empty for two years so they can raise the rent to market level under the rental caps as this is the only way to get a fair market rent.

The issue relevant to this topic is private landlords selling to get out of the market.

Where the topics overlap is that getting landlords to commit long term is a benefit to tenants.
But all the other stuff you are discussing, while important and a job for the RTB, is not relevant to this thread/topic and cetainly hasn't caused the housing crisis or landlords leaving the market en masse recently.
 
No where did I say or imply LLs gaming the system caused this crisis. That's a fantasy in your own head. As i's mixing up issues.

People are complaining about the rules. All I'm saying is the rules came in due problems that were causing significant problems.
 
RonnieShinbal88 said:
If you think the housing crisis is due to private landlords gaming the system I'm sorry but you are just wrong.

There are two discussions you are mixing up, one is how to solve a housing crisis and landlords rushing to leave the market recently, the other is tenants rights and bad landlord behaviour.

They are separate issues because, regardless of the behaviour of bad landlords - if they evict tenants and get tenants in at a higher rent for example, there is still one rental unit available in the big housing crisis picture. The small private landlords are at the cheaper end of the scale to the massive REITs that leave a place empty for months rather than accepting a rent lower than the max they think they can get, that is probably a bigger issue in terms of vacant units to be honest, or the fact that people with long term tenants that leave are leaving their place empty for two years so they can raise the rent to market level under the rental caps as this is the only way to get a fair market rent.

The issue relevant to this topic is private landlords selling to get out of the market.

Where the topics overlap is that getting landlords to commit long term is a benefit to tenants.
But all the other stuff you are discussing, while important and a job for the RTB, is not relevant to this thread/topic and cetainly hasn't caused the housing crisis or landlords leaving the market en masse recently.
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When I say that the relevant issue is landlords leaving the market, that's the reason this moratorium is being proposed. It's pretty clear this is what is driving the proposal, see Leo Varadkars recent comments on this for example.
 
Landlords are always leaving and joining.

The issue is a chronic current lack of supply means any eviction often leaves tenants homeless.
 
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AlbacoreA said:
Landlords are always leaving and joining.

The issue is a chronic current lack of supply means any eviction often leaves tenants homeless.
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Leaving at much higher rates recently, and that worsens supply.
A moratorium will make this much worse because as soon as it's lifted the flood gates will really open, because there are a lot of people that will wonder what's next, this is FF/FG, what will SF do in a few years, lets get out while the window is open etc.
 
RonnieShinbal88 said:
Leaving at much higher rates recently, and that worsens supply.
A moratorium will make this much worse because as soon as it's lifted the flood gates will really open, because there are a lot of people that will wonder what's next, this is FF/FG, what will SF do in a few years, lets get out while the window is open etc.
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Absolutely. As Charlie Haughey famously said, if you think I'm bad wait til you see what's coming next!

I think the government will last until spring 2025. Between now and then we will definitely go from 165,000 landlords to under 150,000 landlords. Possibly lower. That's possibly 30-40,000 plus people looking for new homes and they aren't there.
 
PebbleBeach2020 said:
Absolutely. As Charlie Haughey famously said, if you think I'm bad wait til you see what's coming next!

I think the government will last until spring 2025. Between now and then we will definitely go from 165,000 landlords to under 150,000 landlords. Possibly lower. That's possibly 30-40,000 plus people looking for new homes and they aren't there.
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Government has 6 billion in a rainy day fund they could use to buy those.
 
RonnieShinbal88 said:
Government has 6 billion in a rainy day fund they could use to buy those.
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With tenants in situe, problem solved without extraordinary measures to remove anyone's property rights.
Might have to cut back on any vote-buying budget giveaways in the run up to next election so it's unlikely we will get a step up to the plate solution like that.
 
RonnieShinbal88 said:
With tenants in situe, problem solved without extraordinary measures to remove anyone's property rights.
Might have to cut back on any vote-buying budget giveaways in the run up to next election so it's unlikely we will get a step up to the plate solution like that.
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Have an apartment in Palmerstown Dublin 20. Had it with SDCC under RAS scheme now with the same CC under the long term rental scheme.
I get 1560 per month. The unit is worth around 280k. I have three years left on the lease. The same unit could not be built for 280k. Every six months I contact council and offer them the unit to purchase only to be told no funds available. By the time this last lease is up the CC have probably paid me more rent than the apartment would cost to buy. I have brought this to the attention of all the main parties shinners included only to get back standard waffle. That is its the county councils decision.
 
KOW said:
Have an apartment in Palmerstown Dublin 20. Had it with SDCC under RAS scheme now with the same CC under the long term rental scheme.
I get 1560 per month. The unit is worth around 280k. I have three years left on the lease. The same unit could not be built for 280k. Every six months I contact council and offer them the unit to purchase only to be told no funds available. By the time this last lease is up the CC have probably paid me more rent than the apartment would cost to buy. I have brought this to the attention of all the main parties shinners included only to get back standard waffle. That is its the county councils decision.
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That's politicians for you, none of them have job stability so we are doomed to short term decisions because of their job insecurity and the need for short term gains and results. They are literally all the same in that regard.
 
It's nice to see we are patting ourselves on the back over our economic planning, while simultaneously proposing extraordinary measures to override property rights due to a failure of investment in housing.

Around 7 minutes 50 is where the Minister for Finance refers to having the luxury of sticking 6 billion aside in a rainy day fund due to their brilliance in economic planning:

www.rte.ie

Economic co-operation between EU, US 'at a new high'

Minster for Finance Paschal Donohoe has said economic co-operation between Ireland, the European Union and the United States is at a new high point.
www.rte.ie www.rte.ie

Bravo!
 
The proposal that local authorities buy out landlords of HAP properties may make sense from the exchequer point of view but it doesn't make any sense from the LA's perspective. They can't manage their own purpose built social housing stock which is generally in estates where are their dwellings are located adjacent to one another. Their record of maintenance is really poor, in part because the average rent of €52 per week is just too low to pay for maintenance. How the hell are their doing to maintain dispersed and maybe run down dwellings they by from private landlords who are desperate to exit the sector?
 
Mocame said:
The proposal that local authorities buy out landlords of HAP properties may make sense from the exchequer point of view but it doesn't make any sense from the LA's perspective. They can't manage their own purpose built social housing stock which is generally in estates where are their dwellings are located adjacent to one another. Their record of maintenance is really poor, in part because the average rent of €52 per week is just too low to pay for maintenance. How the hell are their doing to maintain dispersed and maybe run down dwellings they by from private landlords who are desperate to exit the sector?
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A lot of these are private lettings and they are managed by property management companies for a percentage of the rent. I'm sure they will take on the LAs business with the tenants in situe, it's as good as a private landlords. I don't agree with government interference in the private rental market but if the government insists we need to consider all of the options.
 
I mentioned in a previous post on this thread that a friend who let out her home temporary to move in with an ill relative has issued an eviction notice to the tenant of her former home. Her solicitor has informed her that if the eviction ban is introduced she probably won't be able to proceed with the eviction and therefore will have no where to live herself. She is a longstanding FG supporter and just can't believe she is being punished by the government for providing care for her elderly mother. Or that is how she feels!

Her dreadful situation also got me thinking that no one in her situation will be able to consider renting out their home short term in future. Ditto, people who go to work abroad or go travelling won't be able to rent out their homes temporarily. What per centage of the rental market do these types of landlords make up?
 
Mocame said:
The proposal that local authorities buy out landlords of HAP properties may make sense from the exchequer point of view but it doesn't make any sense from the LA's perspective. They can't manage their own purpose built social housing stock which is generally in estates where are their dwellings are located adjacent to one another. Their record of maintenance is really poor, in part because the average rent of €52 per week is just too low to pay for maintenance. How the hell are their doing to maintain dispersed and maybe run down dwellings they by from private landlords who are desperate to exit the sector?
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Under the long term rental scheme the council maintain the property anyway not the landlord. I threw the council the keys 5yrs ago. Under the lease scheme I have the property returned to me in three years time in the same inspected condition I originally supplied to them. Bar normal wear and tear.
 
Mocame said:
I mentioned in a previous post on this thread that a friend who let out her home temporary to move in with an ill relative has issued an eviction notice to the tenant of her former home. Her solicitor has informed her that if the eviction ban is introduced she probably won't be able to proceed with the eviction and therefore will have no where to live herself. She is a longstanding FG supporter and just can't believe she is being punished by the government for providing care for her elderly mother. Or that is how she feels!

Her dreadful situation also got me thinking that no one in her situation will be able to consider renting out their home short term in future. Ditto, people who go to work abroad or go travelling won't be able to rent out their homes temporarily. What per centage of the rental market do these types of landlords make up?
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Your friend's situation sounds awful and must be a terrible worry. When we get to the stage where people are asking about statistics and percentages to try to defend their property rights, it's a sad indictment of where we are. They need to step up and invest instead of passing on the responsibility and scape goating soft targets.
 
They are looking at a 3 month ban which is going to have no real positive effect on anything, will delay eviction notices already served a maximum of 3 months presumably.
They are getting massive coverage from 'acting in tenants interests' while doing nothing material to help at all, in fact they are worsening the situation by killing off short term rentals for the foreseeable future and making up a lot of minds of anyone on the fence to get out of the rental market. You have to wonder whether their strategy is to deliberately sabotage the market or if it is just incompetence.
 
AlbacoreA said:
Where you getting 165k from? Or any of your figures
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CSO figures. In fact there are 156,555 landlords as of June 2021. There was 3000 notice to quit tenancies in the first six months of the year. So over the next two years, 12,000 tenancies ending would seem on the low side to me.

The 12,000 tenancies are likely to have a minimum of two people in each, likely more infact. So that's 24000 people who were renting.

I think we will get upto 4000 tenancies ending in second half of 2022 and continue increasing in 2023 and 2024.
 
Perhaps pedantic but that figure isn't all landlords.

...All analysis up until and including Figure 3.11 here focuses on individual landlords, where the registered landlord has self-reported as an individual rather than a company or other enterprise. Additional analysis here from Figure 3.12 details ownership of residential property by non-household enterprises using data from the LPT....
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