Solicitor Anthony Joyce recommends against using independent appeals panels

jess82

Registered User
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3
Solicitor Anthony Joyce was on RTÉ radio this evening to comment on the meeting of the oireachtas today and the tracker debacle in general. His advice was for anyone effected was to skip the appeal processes put in place (ptsb) and go straight to court where it is a fully independent hearing! He stated that he would not be taking any of the compensation received as his fees would be covered separately.
He also stated he has many clients effected. I find this advise curious as I can't find any info on cases he has taken so far to court? Considering its 2years since ptsb first contacted effected customers I would have thought there would have been something either on this forum or in media regarding cases he has taken?! I know p.kissane has in past mentioned court proceedings in relation to the rate issue but Anthony Joyce was not discussing this, more in relation to compensation. Has anyone heard info on mr Joyce's case progress thus far?
 

jess82

Registered User
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3
I had heard of him in 2015 but nothing since, so found his comments re courts rather odd. Surely if he has many clients engaged he would be aware that the majority of people effected wouldn't have the funds for individual court fights. I suppose will have to watch this space to see if anyone can give info on his progress!!
 

gahfan

Frequent Poster
Messages
96
Hi Jess82 and Stitcher, I am with Anthony Joyce as are many others I believe. I have found his office to be helpful. We are appealing the level of compensation received, had to fill in forms etc, awaiting outcome. There are no fees upfront. They do charge the e400 fee for financial advise but not at this point. They are confident of winning on the basis of P Tsb's admission of guilt though you never can tell.
Let me know if you have any other queries.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,953
His advice was for anyone effected was to skip the appeal processes put in place (ptsb) and go straight to court where it is a fully independent hearing!
He clearly does not understand the process if that is his advice.

The Appeals Process costs you nothing, but time.
It is independent, but that does not matter.
If you don't like the result, you can then go to the courts.
And you will be better prepared for court as you will get an insight into the bank's defence.
I would think that the first question a judge will ask is "Why did you not try the Independent Appeals Panel first?"

Of course, solicitors get no fees from people who go down the Independent Appeals Panel approach and are satisfied with the outcome, but that would not be Anthony Joyce's motivation. He obviously thinks that there is some advantage to the client in not taking a free shot.

In general, you should be very wary of solicitors who operate on a no foal, no fee basis. I have seen many of them. You have a really strong case until you reach the steps of the court. Then it turns out that actually your case is not that strong. You are at risk of having a significant costs award made against you. The bank's offer to pay your professional fees begins to appear very generous and you come under pressure to accept it. So there was no foal, but the legal profession gets a fee anyway.

Brendan
 
F

Freshstart

Guest
Each to their own course of action of course but the thing about this entire debacle is that is has left many people drained completely. Not just financially but of all the fight in them. It's OK to say the appeals process costs nothing but time. But to many embroiled in this the prospect of further being put on trial by a panel set up by the bank that defrauded them to begin with is just a step too far. To defend themselves and be asked for evidence that cannot be provided such as family loans or lost opportunities is too much. I think it's understandable people handing the reigns over to Anthony Joyce or any other solicitor.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,953
To defend themselves and be asked for evidence that cannot be provided such as family loans or lost opportunities is too much.
So you are prepared to make a claim without substantiating it? You will have no chance in court.

Make your claim to the Independent Appeals Panel.
Provide the information which you think is appropriate to support your claim.
If they reject it, then by all means go to court.

this entire debacle is that is has left many people drained completely. Not just financially but of all the fight in them.
Do you have any idea how draining a two or three year court battle is going to be?

It's crazy advice not to avail of the Independent Appeals Panel set up under the direction and guidelines of the Central Bank.

By the way, Padraic Kissane has been highly critical of one of the ptsb appeals panels and highly supportive of the other one. Fortunately, the one he supports is the one for the big claims.

Brendan
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,953
It might well be worth asking Anthony Joyce or any other solicitor who is bypassing the independent appeals panels how many of their cases have been resolved through the courts process.

I know that Padraic Kissane has resolved many cases through the independent appeals process to everyone's satisfaction. And I know that he is not happy with some of their decisions which he will be taking to the courts or to the FSO.

Brendan
 
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F

Freshstart

Guest
Pardon my ignorance but if a case has been through appeals and ends up in court anyway what's the difference!?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,953
Pardon my ignorance
I think that people, in their annoyance, seem to be vulnerable to people giving them very bad advice. They can't follow the logic of what is happening here.

You got say 10% compensation or €3,000 and you don't think it's enough.
You add up the distress caused and you think it should be €20,000.
So you go to a solicitor and you sue for €20,000.
Two years later, after ....

On such an afternoon, if ever, the Lord High Chancellor ought to be sitting here—as here he is—with a foggy glory round his head, softly fenced in with crimson cloth and curtains, addressed by a large advocate with great whiskers, a little voice, and an interminable brief, and outwardly directing his contemplation to the lantern in the roof, where he can see nothing but fog. On such an afternoon some score of members of the High Court of Chancery bar ought to be—as here they are—mistily engaged in one of the ten thousand stages of an endless cause, tripping one another up on slippery precedents, groping knee-deep in technicalities, running their goat-hair and horsehair warded heads against walls of words and making a pretence of equity with serious faces, as players might. On such an afternoon the various solicitors in the cause, some two or three of whom have inherited it from their fathers, who made a fortune by it, ought to be—as are they not?—ranged in a line, in a long matted well (but you might look in vain for truth at the bottom of it) between the registrar's red table and the silk gowns, with bills, cross-bills, answers, rejoinders, injunctions, affidavits, issues, references to masters, masters' reports, mountains of costly nonsense, piled before them.

you win your case and you get €20,000 plus the solicitors fees. So you feel happy and your solicitor is happy and richer.

But you could go to the appeals panel and within a month, they agree that you deserve €20,000 and you get it.

There are a few possible outcomes.

1) Go to the appeals panel and get awarded €20,000 a month later - everyone happy except the legal profession.
2) Go to the appeals panel and get refused - so you go to the courts anyway.You have lost nothing.
3) Go directly to the court and two years later get an award of €20,000
4) Go directly to the court and two years later your case is thrown out and there is a judgement against you for the bank's costs.

It's bonkers stuff not going through the appeals panels.

Brendan
 
F

Freshstart

Guest
Not really what I asked though. Even Mr Kissane has expressed his disapproval at this panel. There has been any satisfaction for very few. Have you actually seen what a daunting prospect that appeals booklet is? A lot of customers in vulnerable positions just would not be able for it.
 

gahfan

Frequent Poster
Messages
96
Freshstart I sense you are disillusioned and obviously I'm not aware of your personal circumstances but I'd have a different approach altogether, be like a terrier with a bone, don't give up, hang in there, keep fighting. Many people have had decent results from all this over the last few years.

Brendan I take your point about going to the appeals panel first. There seemed to be a lot of negativity around it and I think that put people off.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,953
A few other points

1) I don't think that the lender can appeal the decision of the Appeals Panel. So if the lender does not like the decision, they are stuck with it. If they don't like the court's decision, they can appeal it. If it were a decision that might have implications for other cases, they probably would appeal it.

2) The Appeals Panel is held in private. The court is a public forum. Most people would not like their financial affairs being discussed in public.

Brendan
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
37,953
For ptsb

B Customer Appeals Panel ("CAP"):-

1. Patricia Rickard Clarke (Chairperson); - a solicitor
2. Anthony (Tony) Ensor; - a solicitor and rugby player
3. A ptsb employee, but acting independently

4. Michael O'Mahony (alternate independent member).



The members of the Independent Review Panel are

James McCourt - solicitor
Caroline Gill - barrister and former deputy FSO
Cyril Maybury - chartered accountant

The AIB panels are
Tracker Mortgage Appeals Panel Membership


Who will hear my appeal?



All appeals will be heard by a fully independent appeals panel who will operate under the Terms of Reference that have been agreed with the Central Bank of Ireland. The operation of the panel will be managed independently by an appeals panel secretariat and all communication with the customer during an appeal will be through the secretariat.


The appeals panel comprises three individuals:

  • One member with legal qualifications
    Either Lisa Broderick, Gary Rice, or Niamh McKeever
  • One member with accountancy qualifications
    Either Eugene McMahon, Aedin Morkan, or Brendan Waters
  • One member with appropriate experience of dealing with consumer affairs
    Either Ann Fitzgerald, Ita Mangan, or Kevin Rafter
I know the three people whose names I have highlighted. I would have full confidence in their independence. I don't know if they have much knowledge of mortgages though.

Brendan
 

TLO

Frequent Poster
Messages
234
Anthony Joyce has a fairly strong record in legal initiatives. One of the highlights from a few years ago would be the pioneering Section 94 application to the High Court. It had the effect of forcing changes in the way in which banks negotiated with negative equity borrowers who wished to sell their property. If Anthony Joyce's advice is to ignore the Appeals Panel then TLO's instinct would be to follow it, notwithstanding everything that Brendan said above.
 
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