Should our immigration and asylum system be adapted to the skills we need?

[Right Winger]

@Right Winger, in general terms I agree with you but it's a terrible double standard that we expect the USA to hold onto Irish illegal immigrants when we are looking to kick out our illegals.

Personally, I don't support the Irish illegals. They knew the rules; they quite deliberately chose to ignore the rules; it's entirely valid for the US to throw them out.

In fact we call our illegals in America "undocumented"

Couldn't agree more. Undocumented is a really clever weasel word invented and used by the open borders lot to avoid using the more correct and accurate description, namely "illegal" immigrants. It suggests a mere oversight, an unfortunate occurrence that need not bother us. The reality is different. If you're a refugee, you have documents; if you're an asylum seeker, you get documents that are reflect that; if you're a legal economic migrant, guess what, you have documents for that too; if you're on an overstaying tourist visa, you have documents that reflect that. If you choose to hide, destroy or ignore your documents, then you are gaming the system and not a good faith actor. You have documents - just not the ones you'd prefer to have.

and come out with rubbish statements like "The Irish built America" and all that guff.

Well, they did make a significant contribution. As did many others.

Using illegals as an excuse for the results of the incompetence of the State (not just the government, the entire State Sector) as manifested in housing shortages, healthcare delays and Welfare abuse is where I have a problem.

It's not of course an excuse, but it definitely does exacerbate the problem.

 

[Right Winger]

40% is the worldwide figure, e.g. UN stats: https://www.unhcr.org/hk/en/unaccompanied-children

...

If Ireland's numbers are 17% then people in favour of greater restrictions should be thrilled - it's much easier (practically, politically, and legally) to deport adults than children and if you allow adults entry they can potentially join the workforce.

Ho hum, that's a pretty tenuous argument. If 40% is the world average, then presumably that reflects normal asylum seekers who fled with their complete families. (I mean, if you genuinely believe you're fleeing from mortal danger, you're hardly going to leave the women and kids behind, are you?) A number way lower than the world average suggests a large percentage of young unattached males of, yes, military age. And unvetted too - the meme is accurate!

 

[becky]

I'm not surprised to hear that there are junior doctors in private hospitals. They are a very different animal now. They can compete with HSE hospitals on training, research, and maybe pension etc. In the past that wasn't the case.

Only issue is it's unlikely they will ever get specialist status on the IMC register. That's said I know 2 Consultants who said they would like to see a staff grade doctor. Not every doctor wants to be a Consultant or GP but want to stay in an area like Orthopaedics, Obs Gyn etc.

I know of a Consultant who is the partner of a well known public figure. Did the SPR scheme in the HSE and went straight to the private sector.

 

[Purple]

I recruited junior doctors in the past for the HSE. We always awarded their overseas service once it was in a teaching hospital.

My friends father is a heart surgeon from the Middle East. He worked here for nearly 20 years but couldn't get a consultant post. Once the children were through school he and his wife moved to London where within 3 years he was a consultant. The only thing that held him back here was that he didn't train here and he was the wrong colour. Has that changed in the last 20 years? I doubt it.

 

[Purple]

Back on topic:
Should our immigration and asylum system be adapted to the skills we need?
Yes when it comes to immigration. No, obviously, when it comes to asylum. That said anyone who arrives here with no documents should be arrested and deported.

 

[becky]

My friends father is a heart surgeon from the Middle East. He worked here for nearly 20 years but couldn't get a consultant post. Once the children were through school he and his wife moved to London where within 3 years he was a consultant. The only thing that held him back here was that he didn't train here and he was the wrong colour. Has that changed in the last 20 years? I doubt it.

I would say it has changed in the last 10 years. We have appointed lots of non EU consultants in recent years. Our 3 consultant Urologists are all non EU.
Just to add the urology team was a very irish team in comparison to the other surgical teams.

 

[Early Riser]

That said anyone who arrives here with no documents should be arrested and deported.

That seems an over generalization.
I have little doubt that many who arrive without documents have deliberately destroyed them with a view to gaming the system. But refugees fleeing political persecution under dangerous regimes may also be without documentation for genuine reasons.

 

[Protocol]

People arriving without travel documents all had the documents a few hours earlier, so there are no genuine reasons.

 

[Right Winger]

That seems an over generalization.
I have little doubt that many who arrive without documents have deliberately destroyed them with a view to gaming the system. But refugees fleeing political persecution under dangerous regimes may also be without documentation for genuine reasons.

Ho hum. Over 40% of arrivals who seek asylum at Dublin Airport arrive without documents. They MUST have had documents to get on at the other end. That's just taking the proverbial and we are being played for eejits.

 

[Purple]

That seems an over generalization.
I have little doubt that many who arrive without documents have deliberately destroyed them with a view to gaming the system. But refugees fleeing political persecution under dangerous regimes may also be without documentation for genuine reasons.

You can't get on a plane to arrive here without documents so anyone without them destroyed them in transit.

 

[PGF2016]

Why not take a scan of documents on departure? Then if the documents do go missing the scan can be retrieved. Scan should only need to be kept for 24 or 48 hours after the flight / journey ends. Obviously there is an administrative overhead but it would be a pretty simple solution and not overly time consuming.

 

[MelF]

Why not take a scan of documents on departure? Then if the documents do go missing the scan can be retrieved. Scan should only need to be kept for 24 or 48 hours after the flight / journey ends. Obviously there is an administrative overhead but it would be a pretty simple solution and not overly time consuming.

100% agree and can't understand how that doesn't happen already as a matter of course.

 

[Purple]

100% agree and can't understand how that doesn't happen already as a matter of course.

Who takes the scan and how is it transferred to our Immigration Service?
Almost 60,000 people move through Dublin Airport each day. Does each airline scan and retain documentation from each passenger? How do they store it? How do they transfer it from say Turkey or Dubai to our officials? What if the arriving passenger won't say what flight they arrived on? Unless we start checking passengers as they disembark from the planes there's no way of knowing what flight they took.

 

[MelF]

Who takes the scan and how is it transferred to our Immigration Service?
Almost 60,000 people move through Dublin Airport each day. Does each airline scan and retain documentation from each passenger? How do they store it? How do they transfer it from say Turkey or Dubai to our officials? What if the arriving passenger won't say what flight they arrived on? Unless we start checking passengers as they disembark from the planes there's no way of knowing what flight they took.

Happens for international arrivals into the US and Oz, so if there's a will there's a way.

 

[Purple]

Happens for international arrivals into the US and Oz, so if there's a will there's a way.

I avoid travelling to the US as much as possible due to the hassle and delay caused by their immigration controls.
I've never been to Australia and have no real desire to do so. We are a small island off the coast of Europe. We take the most flights per capita in the world, 17 times as many as Americans and 11 times as many as Australians.

 

[Leo]

Happens for international arrivals into the US and Oz, so if there's a will there's a way.

It's certainly possible, but it would require a lot of money alongside that will, and additional delay on every passenger.

 

[MelF]

It's certainly possible, but it would require a lot of money alongside that will, and additional delay on every passenger.

Worth it as a scammer deterrent though? The whole liquids-in-bag security farce is still ongoing and everyone got on board with that easily enough once assured it was for their 'protection.

 

[Purple]

Worth it as a scammer deterrent though?

What happens if the person flushed their documents down the toilet in transit?
The issue is how we deal with people who have destroyed their documents while in transit to this country, not where we detect that person.

 

[Leo]

Worth it as a scammer deterrent though?

Is it though? What's the current cost of a few scammers getting in? Is it in the hundreds of millions or even billions?

The whole liquids-in-bag security farce is still ongoing and everyone got on board with that easily enough once assured it was for their 'protection.

That's being phased out now in more and more airports as scanning technology has advanced to the point where the once very real threat of explosive materials being brought onboard has diminished.

I don't know how many scammers are really making it past our current checks undetected, but personally, I prefer the current system with all it's flaws over spending much more time in airport queues and paying more in airport fees.

 

[MelF]

What happens if the person flushed their documents down the toilet in transit?
The issue is how we deal with people who have destroyed their documents while in transit to this country, not where we detect that person.

If there's a record of docs at point of departure and they don't have them at the other end then the scam is up and back they go. Would put a stop to the shenanigans fairly quickly.