Thats another big issue it is too easy to immigrate to Ireland relative to other developed economies, therefore you don't need a construction skill or trade to come here like you would for Canada or Australia. Lots of irish builders went to Australia and Canada a decade ago and were successful in obtaining visas to stay there but only because they stayed working in the construction trade there. Therefore Australia and Canada got alot of builders relatively. The visa system is fairly open here so we attract alot of immigrants but not necessarily the ones with the skills we really need. As was pointed out on another post the construction industry is still staffed largely by irish staff, many of these are getting old and on the verge of retirement. We need to be a bit more discriminating in getting immigrants for the trades that we really need and not a broad brush approach like we have now
Should our immigration and asylum system be adapted to the skills we need?
- Thread starter joe sod
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The constraints on the immigration system are a serious issue in the tech sector here. So if we’re not making it easy for techs or builders, who is our immigration system ‘open’ to?
Right Winger
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Literally anyone who utters the magic words "I am claiming asylum" at Dublin Airport or other point of entry or afterwards.
Words like "I have valuable skills that your economy needs and I speak good English and have a demonstrable commitment to Western democratic values" don't, unfortunately, cut much ice.
The 2022 statistics showed that 63.000 came to ireland from outside the EU (albeit 28.000 were Ukranians) , only 24300 were from other EU countries so the figures don't lie. If it is the case that it is difficult to get tech skills well that just re iterates the point I was making about needing to discriminate based on skills.
Sorry what are those figures saying to your original point, they don’t appear to mention skillset?
Asylum is a core "Western democratic value" that people sometimes forget in these discussions. 40% of people seeking asylum are children so unless you are advocating for the return of child labour then it can't all be about skills and trades. In spite of the post title and comment above, immigration and asylum are not the same thing. Asylum seekers are fleeing from persecution - they are not the same as your cousin Joe who took off to Perth to earn a few bob as a plasterer.
Lower and middle income countries take in about 3/4 of all refugees. The vast majority seek asylum in a neighbouring country (Turkey, Colombia, etc), so very few ever get to Europe. Ireland makes up just over 1% of the EU population but we take less than 0.5% of refugees, so we are not pulling our weight proportionally. We approve about 1/3 of applications, which is the EU average, so it's not the easy entry that people claim.
As for immigrants seeking to come here for work, if they are coming from outside the EU then they have to jump through quite a few hoops before and after arrival.
Right Winger
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Yes it is. It was developed in the post WW2 era as a response to the failure of the world in general to provide refuge for those fleeing lethal Nazi persecution. It has been hugely abused by bogus applicants who claim asylum on the flimsiest of pretexts, knowing that the obligation to investigate their claim guarantees them de facto indefinite immigration status. (Because in practice Ireland virtually never deports failed asylum seekers.)
We need to clearly distinguish between asylum seekers and economic immigrants and have separate well-defined paths for both.
Like I say, asylum seekers should be treated differently to economic migrants. If a child qualifies as a genuine asylum seeker, then they get in. The reality is that most don't qualify.
Let me correct that for you. "Asylum seekers are claiming to be fleeing from persecution..."
And, as we all know, examination of their claims by independent decision makers consistently finds that about 70% to 90% of claims are unfounded.
Oh, and my cousin Joe didn't get free accommodation, free board and lodging, free medical and dental care and free education to third level for his kids when he pitched up in Perth either.
Exactly as you'd expect if they were genuine refugees. You'd apply for asylum in the first safe country you can escape to. Choosing to travel thousands of miles, crossing many safe countries en route is asylum shopping - it's an abuse of a generous system put in place for genuine refugees and should not be encouraged.
If you mean program refugees, then we do take our fair share. We have actually approved more program refugees than have come here - they have opted for other EU countries instead. We are not terribly attractive for genuine refugees - Germany, Sweden and UK are destinations of choice. We are very attractive for bogus claimants simply because we virtually never deport them. Once in, they tend to stay. Until eventually they game the system and get leave to remain. Then, they invariably take a trip back to visit family in the country they allegedly fled from in fear of their lives!
They do indeed. We should make it easier for people to immigrate if they have skills and qualifications that we need. And they are of good character, no criminal record, etc etc.
We should decide how many immigrants we would like, and what qualifications they should have. Then we select as you would do for a job opportunity. That way the Irish people get to decide who comes here. At the moment that decision is made by asylum seekers and those who traffic them, with the outcome foisted upon us. We need to control the process based on Ireland's requirements. We will be better able to fix the world's problems when we can solve our own first.
Arbiton you haven't stated the source of your statistics but the 40% quoted above is definitely incorrect.
In the 10 months to end October 2022 , 11140 applications for asylum were made of which 1980 were minors, just over 17%.
figs for the last 5 years are here.
@Right Winger, in general terms I agree with you but it's a terrible double standard that we expect the USA to hold onto Irish illegal immigrants when we are looking to kick out our illegals. In fact we call our illegals in America "undocumented" and come out with rubbish statements like "The Irish built America" and all that guff.
Using illegals as an excuse for the results of the incompetence of the State (not just the government, the entire State Sector) as manifested in housing shortages, healthcare delays and Welfare abuse is where I have a problem.
Using illegals as an excuse for the results of the incompetence of the State (not just the government, the entire State Sector) as manifested in housing shortages, healthcare delays and Welfare abuse is where I have a problem.
T McGibney
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We should not be basing crucial national policy on the witterings of idiot politicians who make an art form of cadging junkets across the pond to tell expats what they want to hear, without ever meaning a word of it.
They're about as credible as their American counterparts who from time to time sound off with back-of-a-beermat solutions to the various issues in Northern Ireland.
Arbiton you haven't stated the source of your statistics but the 40% quoted above is definitely incorrect.
In the 10 months to end October 2022 , 11140 applications for asylum were made of which 1980 were minors, just over 17%.
figs for the last 5 years are here.
40% is the worldwide figure, e.g. UN stats: https://www.unhcr.org/hk/en/unaccompanied-children
Eurostat says it was about 31% across the EU in 2021: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/stati...tle=Children_in_migration_-_asylum_applicants
Within Europe the numbers vary from about 40% in Greece to 10% in Spain, e.g. Unicef stats https://www.unicef.org/eca/emergencies/latest-statistics-and-graphics-refugee-and-migrant-children
If Ireland's numbers are 17% then people in favour of greater restrictions should be thrilled - it's much easier (practically, politically, and legally) to deport adults than children and if you allow adults entry they can potentially join the workforce.
@joe sod and @Right Winger, as this thread concerns housing and policy, can you give some bulletpoints of the current numbers and processes that you're concerned about and how you would propose to change them?
It would be interesting to learn how many immigration visas are issued annually, in which categories, etc. and how this compares to UK or other European countries. Then for asylum seekers, it would be useful to see what the numbers are for deportations, successful applications, etc.
And then of course to hear how they are substantially affecting housing needs. Very difficult to have a meaningful discussion if we're not all working from the same data.
It would be interesting to learn how many immigration visas are issued annually, in which categories, etc. and how this compares to UK or other European countries. Then for asylum seekers, it would be useful to see what the numbers are for deportations, successful applications, etc.
And then of course to hear how they are substantially affecting housing needs. Very difficult to have a meaningful discussion if we're not all working from the same data.
@arbitron I didn't start this thread but it was started for me because it was deemed a separate issue. From the cso statistics for 2023 there have been a total 7000 work visas issued in 2023, however only 330 odd were for the construction industry, 2000 odd were for health and social services, 1000 odd were for information technology.
I accept that we should be issuing many more construction related visas, and probably work visas in general.
However there are other ways of getting into ireland relatively easy without the required skills . The stamp 2 visa (learn English as a foreign language) where you are allowed work 20 hours a week is an infamous and widely abused one (especially by the supposed language schools charging extortionate rates) .In 2017 over 100,000 came to ireland via this visa, don't have the statistics for this year.
Surely a simple strategy could be if you want a long term visa to stay in Ireland you can work in the construction sector as a low skilled labourer if necessary. There needs to be some way of incentivising the immigration flow (which is already large) into the sectors that are struggling for labour
For example Australia has such a system for work visas ,they require the person to take up the job in the rural areas that need their skills and not the cities
I accept that we should be issuing many more construction related visas, and probably work visas in general.
However there are other ways of getting into ireland relatively easy without the required skills . The stamp 2 visa (learn English as a foreign language) where you are allowed work 20 hours a week is an infamous and widely abused one (especially by the supposed language schools charging extortionate rates) .In 2017 over 100,000 came to ireland via this visa, don't have the statistics for this year.
Surely a simple strategy could be if you want a long term visa to stay in Ireland you can work in the construction sector as a low skilled labourer if necessary. There needs to be some way of incentivising the immigration flow (which is already large) into the sectors that are struggling for labour
For example Australia has such a system for work visas ,they require the person to take up the job in the rural areas that need their skills and not the cities
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thedaddyman
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Completely agree but we are no different in that respect then some other countries. British people don't emigrate for example, they become "ex pats" yet look at the reaction to immigration coming into Britain at the minute, even those legal.
Given the fact that we have one of the most highly qualified young generations in the world, I don't believe we need that much tech skills, bar those with niche skills. Perhaps our issue though is that we are training people in courses that are no use to anyone. Only so many qualified Strength and Conditioning coaches needed for example yet there are plenty of university courses in it.
Most of the highly paid jobs in the tech sector currently occupied by emigrants are only here because of those emigrants. For example there aren't too many Irish people who are experts in Java and speak fluent Hindi.
And don't believe the nonsense about us having a a world class education system and a highly educated workforce. We're nothing special in that respect. The only world class things we have is our grass and our taxation system.
A big advantage is that we speak English but another major factor is the protectionism afforded by EU and Irish law. For example, when we are recruiting doctors we have to rank an Irish graduate who scraped a pass and has the bare minimum experience ahead of a fully qualified consultant from a non-EU country.
Even if we manage to hire the non-EU doctor the HSE refuses to acknowledge their experience abroad so they start at the bottom of the payscale. The global talent pool is wide and deep but these rules are completely and brazenly about keeping jobs for the locals rather than hiring the best fit. The hard truth (and an embarrassing irony for many on the right) is that the main benefit of immigration restrictions is to give mediocre Máire and passable Peadar a boost in the job market.
I recruited junior doctors in the past for the HSE. We always awarded their overseas service once it was in a teaching hospital.
You're correct about the ranking.
In my experience it varies from hospital to hospital. Some HR/MM depts will give credit for all Australian/NZ hospitals (even private ones if they have any teaching links) but not for prestigious Pakistani university hospitals. I have seen that challenged and the credit awarded but it required a lot of pressure. Were you able to give credit for time in private teaching hospitals in Ireland (Beacon, Mater Private, Vincent's Private)?
I can't see why it would vary. The contract clearly states:
An NCHD who was employed in a state (other than an EU member state) prior to taking up appointment in Ireland may be granted incremental credit where the experience was obtained in a recognised teaching hospital. Satisfactory evidence of same must be provided by the NCHD.
We've been struggling to get junior doctors well over 10 years. I'm surprised at any hospital debating whether or not to give incremental credit when they are trying to staff a service with safe doctors.
In over 10 years in in the area I hired one doctor from a private hospital. Junior doctors working in private hospitals wasn't a thing but that might have changed. I can't remember if I gave him credit but i know he's a Consultant in Emergency Medicine now.
We hire nurses from non EU countries and they are awarded incremental credit for all relevant experience.
An NCHD who was employed in a state (other than an EU member state) prior to taking up appointment in Ireland may be granted incremental credit where the experience was obtained in a recognised teaching hospital. Satisfactory evidence of same must be provided by the NCHD.
We've been struggling to get junior doctors well over 10 years. I'm surprised at any hospital debating whether or not to give incremental credit when they are trying to staff a service with safe doctors.
In over 10 years in in the area I hired one doctor from a private hospital. Junior doctors working in private hospitals wasn't a thing but that might have changed. I can't remember if I gave him credit but i know he's a Consultant in Emergency Medicine now.
We hire nurses from non EU countries and they are awarded incremental credit for all relevant experience.
I agree that the contract is clear and I always push for HR/MM to recognise any time worked abroad but the IMO are still dealing with cases every year where hospitals are refusing to accept experience abroad.
There are hundreds of NCHDs working in private hospitals now. I know of one Dublin private hospital that has over 50 on the books. I have yet to hear of any getting their time recognised in HSE, which is a real pity, but that's a contract issue and a failure of the union.
There are hundreds of NCHDs working in private hospitals now. I know of one Dublin private hospital that has over 50 on the books. I have yet to hear of any getting their time recognised in HSE, which is a real pity, but that's a contract issue and a failure of the union.