Ripped Off By Solicitor

Minutes after closing yesterday I got a call from my solicitors office stating that I owed them €2800 in fees including searches, registry fees and outlays.
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It is fairly basic economics really. Sols have been used to huge profits from the property boom.

Less property transactions mean higher fees in the short term until sols get used to the idea of competition again then fees will drop sharply.

one thing to be careful of is "outlays" .....it has happened to me in the past that a sols ramped these up......I had though they were actual costs when in fact margins had been added in
 
It seems very suspect for the fees to double. Outlays for a FTB on a new apartment couldn't run to anything like €1,000. Regsitration fees would be less than €100, there's no stamp duty and search fees should be €100 at most. By law all solicitors have to send out a letter quoting their fees so ask for a copy of this. If they won't budge go to the Law Society
 
FKH said:
It seems very suspect for the fees to double. Outlays for a FTB on a new apartment couldn't run to anything like €1,000. Regsitration fees would be less than €100, there's no stamp duty and search fees should be €100 at most. By law all solicitors have to send out a letter quoting their fees so ask for a copy of this. If they won't budge go to the Law Society
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Many inaccuracies here.

First search fees begin at 100 but can be in the hundreds depending on the title.

Second registration fees would only be around 100 if the title were registry of deeds. However more than 90% of the land mass of ireland is land registry title so it is much more likely to be land registry title in which case the fees will be any where between 500 to 700 or possibly more.

Finally the law does not in fact require solicitors to send a s.68 letter setting out the fees- what it actually says is that they have to have discussed fees at the outset with the client and then in solicitors regulations with the law society we are required to have a note of that discussion/agreement on our file, whether that be in the form of an email, a memorandum or a letter.

I don't know what the initial agreement with this OP was. My feeling is that if they were quoted 1400 all in, this was incredibly cheap. A normal conveyance would consist of outlays alone of say 600 land registry fees, 100 searches, possibly 20/30 commissioner for oaths fees, so here the actual fee charged by the solicitor would dwindle to somewhere between five to six hundred euro ( plus VAT). It seems unlikely. However I would say that there appears to be a failing in communication from the solicitors office if the OP believed that 1400 all in was the fee and I would expect them to address that.
 
It's a new one bed apartment so the Land Regsitry fees would be €85 for a first registration (and maybe €25 for a certified copy folio).

Also most search companies charge a fixed fee these days. Easy thing to do there is ack to see the search companies invoice.
 
What is the point ? The OP was quoted a price simople as that. It is not up to Joe Public to help the Solicitor justify ripping him off. In any other business transaction, if a price is quoted, whether it be right or wrong, the firm can withdraw before the transaction proceeds. Its a bit rich to alter the terms and price after the work os done. There is no point in persons trying to defend the legal profession, and believe me some of my closent friends are solicitors and barristers. I extensively use the legal profession, but always get prices prior to handing the case over - and I use the biggest law firms available. As I write I hear that a warrant has been issued to arrest Michael Lynn -- remind me - is he a Solicitor ??
 
If you read the posts most people are questioning whether that price was a full and final price or VAT and search etc EXCLUSIVE
 
I quote the original Post:

At the time, the solicitor quoted me an all-in price of approximately €1400, telling me that they had a policy of giving first time buyers a break on the price to retain their custom down the line.

They were quoted an all in price - if prior to completion he was advised that the costs were to increase fine. However after the job is done and then make a change, and a significant one at that is bad business.

I don't cast all Doctors in the Shipman frame, but there and have been so many issues in relation to solicitors, their practices and issues they have drawn the spotlight onto themselves. And for years they have been self regulated. Very much a case of the Lunatics are running the Asylum.
 
And what I'm saying is that in my experience solicitors do not quote "all in prices". What they do quote is a figure plus VAT plus outlay which someone could easily mistake for a full and final figure.I think bandying around terms like rip-off is dangerous and certainly invoking the names solicitors who are in the dock does nobody any favours.
 
Most solicitors do quote for professional fee plus VAT plus outlays. The real issue is that the outlays for a new apartment seem to come to over €1,100 which seems a lot (I am a solicitor so do know how much outlays are). It is also possible that the OP was quoted an all in price as I know solicitors who do that and it is easy to budget for the outlays.
 
I am not dissagreeing with any counter discussiuon so to speak. However surely they should have advised the OP or sent an Invoice or something. It is like most professional services. The majority work extremley hard in a professional manner, but the minority really scupper it, to an extent that Public view hastily turns. Its not my fault I am just a simple member of Joe Public.
 
John Rambo said:
And what I'm saying is that in my experience solicitors do not quote "all in prices".
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When we bought our house, we were quoted an all-in figure. There were three solicitors firms listed on the brochure provided by the EA. I phoned around for quotes (including firms not listed), and wound up going with the most conveniently placed of the three that was listed as they were cheapest. They were probably handling quite a few of the purchases for that estate, and so knew what the costs would be.
 
sorry FKH can I just query something, you say you are solicitor but can i just ask about your calculations re the registration of an apartment above, you say 85 for first registration and 25 for copy folio, but surely depending on the purchase price there are additional land registry fees?
 
The land registry fee for leasehold property (apartments) which are new build (it is called first registration) is €85 which includes the mortgage and counterpart. The Searches fees could be anything up to 200 euro depending on how many companies they had to search ( might be mangement company aswell?. When a Solicitor give a quote of 1,400 that usually means 1,400 + postage + vat + outlay which would include Search fees and Land Registry Fees . Which would add to about 2,100

1,400 + 100 (postage) + VAT 315 + Search fees 200 + Land Reg fees 85 = 2,100

what may have happened is that they confused the Land Registry fees for a house with is €560 instead of €85 which is a 500 difference. I would ask for a breakdown of the fee together with a copy of the feenote for the Searches fees to clear this all up.

Solicitors rarely give an all -in fee because they have no idea what the search fee will be or what the vat rate will be when it is completed or even if the land reg fees will change so all in probably just meant their fee.
 
I don't see what Micheal Lynn has to do with this discussion-which relates to a billing disagreement, as opposed to the issues over which he is being questioned.

So let's just stick to the relevant facts as they stand before us please.
 
Thanks BK2, I would agree that the solicitor may have confused the registration costs.

I do know solicitors that will quote all-in for new apartments as you pretty much know exactly what the outlays will be.

All you can do is get a copy of teh full invoice breakdown and post your findings.
 
FKH and BK2,

You've both caused me to register having been what I believe is referred to as a "lurker" on this forum for many years.

It's frightening that you two can come out with such inaccuracies which do nothing to help this discussion.

The assertion that Land Registry fees for a leasehold are 85 euro is utter tripe and that the Land Registry fees for a house are more than an apartment is similarly rubbish.

What has first registration and the 85 euro fee got to do with registering ownership of an apartment? Would you care to enlighten us all with your extensive legal knowledge as to what first registration for 85 euro entails?

The Land Registry fees are readily accessible on their website. As a previous poster mentioned, they relate to the value of the property.

If the value of the apartment is over 385001, the land reg fee for the transfer is 625. Add to that 125 to register the mortgage. Add another 60 to open a new folio (if the apartment is new). Add another 25 for copy folio file plan which the lender will likely require. That adds up to 835 in Land Registry fees alone. Searches could with the greatest of ease bring the total outlay to over 1000. Suggesting otherwise does not help the OP in anyway and does nothing to help the general discussion.

I hope that the above is of assistance to the OP. I do not agree that the outlay appears to be excessive. I do however feel that communication from your solicitors may have been less than effective. I would suggest that a reasoned written request to them for details of the charges might provide a detailed clartification.
 
The soliicitor should have given you a wriiten estimate, according to the Law Society. If you are not happy, write to the law society or go to their website. They have quite a comprhensive complaints procedure
 
brera

seems you havn't a clue. new apartments main title deed is a lease. This is registered in the land registry as first registration of a lease - €85.00. Any mortgage registed with it is free.

the main title deed for a new house is a transfer - and fees depend on the value.

fees on transfers of 2nd hand apartments and 2nd hand houses also depend on value
 
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