Review of Prime Time programme on auctioneers

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phoenix_n

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In Oz you have to register as an auction bidder (correct me if im wrong!)- more transparent , so good that way , though the EA's friend could register etc etc etc
Yep you are right.
 

murray

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67
Originally Posted by plaudit
After seeing that program if I was buying a house or apartment and it was advertised with an EA I would just go up and bang on the door and tell them I will only deal with them directly, I'm sure they wouldn't mind as they too would be saving on the commission.

And EA's are the crooks!?!? what about the EA who works 50+ hrs a week on a small basic & commission , uses his own car , views properties at 7.30pm for vendors who are just 'testing' the market? Is that fair?
 
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Guest120

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what about the EA who works 50+ hrs a week on a small basic & commission , uses his own car , views properties at 7.30pm for vendors who are just 'testing' the market? Is that fair?
Surely there are plenty of other professions about?

What next? The car sales man who has to work a Saturday and put up with 'tyre kickers'.

Give me a break. My heart bleeds.
 

Stiofan

Registered User
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18
In Oz you have to register as an auction bidder (correct me if im wrong!)- more transparent , so good that way , though the EA's friend could register etc etc etc
Thats true but they lock you up in Oz for putting in ghost bids, not to sure about you but that would most certainly put me off the idea!!!

To be honest Murray i'm a bit confused as to why you would be so against stricter governance for EAs. I'm presuming (corrrect me if i'm wrong) you are in the industry in question and if it was me I would welcome any such changes that would remove any doubt that the public may have in me regarding my ethical approach to business.
 

auto320

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551
After seeing that program if I was buying a house or apartment and it was advertised with an EA I would just go up and bang on the door and tell them I will only deal with them directly, I'm sure they wouldn't mind as they too would be saving on the commission.
Although I am no fan of EAs in Ireland, this approach is unfair and bordering on the dishonest. If the agent has contracted to sell the property and has spent money on highlighting it (including putting up a sign), it is unfair to try to do him out of his commission.

Anytime I have ever wanted to sell property I have used EAs; selling yourself will get you all kinds of messers who will be dealt with more effectively by an EA. What is it about us in Ireland that we begrudge marketing companies their commission? If they are breaking the law they need to be dealt with, but if they are doing what they do for agreed fees, what is the problem?
 

mad m

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66
but if they are doing what they do for agreed fees, what is the problem?
Yeah like sell a vendors property for under 60k,thats the problem.Also telling vendors that people arent that interested in their property when there was....

I always thought they were a necessary evil,but if I was selling again I would go it alone.
 

col

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118
Lets not forget this was sensational television and was meant to shock.Having said that I am not surprised that we have so many cowboys in this game. Regulations have to change and get the cowboys out.
 

roland

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115
The property business is a textbook example of a honeypot for crooks and schiesters.

- It has a large number of customers willing to part with large sums of money without asking too many questions
- They give this money to middlemen who are not regulated
- There are few, if any, barriers to entry, so anyone can start up in business

Any business like this is is naturally going to attract its fair share of crooks. Property attracts an even higher proportion because of the large sums of money involved. This is all common sense.

Here are some easy ways to get money:

Estate agents: More often than not this means turning up for a few viewings and passing on bids. Not much more than secretarial work. Training needed? Not much. Your reward? 1%. Average house price in Dublin is €420k, so €4.2k a pop. That was pretty easy!

Mortgage brokers: You look up the best mortgage buys in the paper, tell these to people who can't be bothered to buy a paper and then hire a junior to do the paperwork. Your reward? Another 1%. Now you're nearly at €8.5k. That was even easier.

But the best news yet is that you have people queuing up to hand out these sums to you.

So, just do 2 of each a week and you're at nearly €900k a year. But, you've to pay the junior! Ah, that's right. €25k off that. Retire to Marbella.

Is it any surprise there are crooks all over this business.

Disclaimer: I am generalising above, and the nature of a generalisation means it applies in general and not to all in the above trades. I have no doubt there are many honest, skilled and highly-customer focused people in the above trades.
 

riviera

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95
I would love to see this happen , will he attract quality sales people to work for him? I dont think so !!

Maybe this could have worked in a strong bull market , but this idea, along with the internet companies (private seller.ie etc) have and never will take off to any significance. The market now , and as it tightens will need, more than ever , experienced sales people- many Mickey mouse one man band outfits will go under due to lack of experience in a bear market - and no sales/negotiation skills.

Vendors and buyers will always need a 'middle-man' because of the stress involved during a sale - people loose all sense of rationality - the deals will fall through left right and centre because of their lack of experience. Sounds harsh, but so true.


Some points on this thread are valid , though the EA's that I know do a very stressful job, very well. (disclosure- I am an EA)

Remember,;

it is Vendors that gazump people, not EA's.

Ghost bidding is not nearly as frequent as people like to make out (though also not illeagal)

Only Vendors pay EA's not buyers. EA's Loyalty is with them at the end of the day.Buyers seem to forget this - maybe they could employ a buying agent (like in the USA)

Market Forces - if another bid comes in and you dont want to bid further, DONT BID THEN ! - If you are right and there was a 'ghost bid' , the property won't be 'sale agreed' will it?!(as one poster found out earlier in this thread, where he stopped bidding because he was wrongly convinced of ghost bidding and the house was sold to someone else)

I agree 100% with the point about the wrongful disclosing of full financial details from broker to EA - but the EA should have in writing from bank/broker , confirmation that the buyer can buy at the level agreed befor proceeding.

Incidently- would all posters here be as harsh if it was their own property that was being bid up?? (falsely or otherwise?)

In my opinion, only use IPAV or IAVI EA's - at least there is a governing body with a full complaints procedure.

Murray

I agree with most of this.

In France, gazumping is outlawed. Once agreement has been reached on price, buyer and seller sign 'compromis de Vente'. Owner is now tied down to buyer at agreed price. Both buyer and seller hand over 10% deposit to neutral, governmental party (the Notaire), who holds it until final signing. If owner pulls out, he loses his 10% deposit. I have never heard of an owner pulling out.

If you think estate agents in Ireland are bad, go to the French Riviera - Machiavellian frogs.

Once the market slows down, estate agents will start to go under. It will take a big fall to clean out the non-competitive/non-professional EA's.

Caveat Emptor.

Also, legally, in France, if you bid the asking price, the owner is obliged to accept.
 

murray

Frequent Poster
Messages
67
The property business is a textbook example of a honeypot for crooks and schiesters.

- It has a large number of customers willing to part with large sums of money without asking too many questions
- They give this money to middlemen who are not regulated
- There are few, if any, barriers to entry, so anyone can start up in business

Any business like this is is naturally going to attract its fair share of crooks. Property attracts an even higher proportion because of the large sums of money involved. This is all common sense.

Here are some easy ways to get money:

Estate agents: More often than not this means turning up for a few viewings and passing on bids. Not much more than secretarial work. Training needed? Not much. Your reward? 1%. Average house price in Dublin is €420k, so €4.2k a pop. That was pretty easy!
Easy as that !?? So why are there only a handful of successful EA companies then ? You should jump in the ring yourself if it is that easy !;) Plenty of money for nothing.....!

Mortgage brokers: You look up the best mortgage buys in the paper, tell these to people who can't be bothered to buy a paper and then hire a junior to do the paperwork. Your reward? Another 1%. Now you're nearly at €8.5k. That was even easier.

Its a service that saves time in todays busy society, most people end up with a better deal - fact. If you want to go it alone - go ahead!
But the best news yet is that you have people queuing up to hand out these sums to you.

So, just do 2 of each a week and you're at nearly €900k a year. But, you've to pay the junior! Ah, that's right. €25k off that. Retire to Marbella.
:eek: Yup , its just like that.....

Is it any surprise there are crooks all over this business.

Disclaimer: I am generalising above, and the nature of a generalisation means it applies in general and not to all in the above trades. I have no doubt there are many honest, skilled and highly-customer focused people in the above trades.
 

murray

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Messages
67
Lets not forget this was sensational television and was meant to shock.Having said that I am not surprised that we have so many cowboys in this game. Regulations have to change and get the cowboys out.
Agreed, though i doubt it will ever happen , I would love to see a program from our (EA's) side - showing;

peoples arrogance/ignorance/greed ,

how people think nothing of making an appointment to see a property late evening and not turning up etc...

how bidders try to bulls*it the EA , by saying they are in a better financial position than they really are

how vendors/purchasers pull out of a deal 3 months in (after the EA has carried out many viewings, let surveyors, valuers, negotiated a deal, dealt with solicitors, finance brokers and let tradesmen in to 'size up') then the EA gets paid nothing.............................................. (even left with an advertising bill sometimes, when the vendor renages on the agreement)

I think the French system (detailed by RIVIERA) would work well here . Licences for all EA's as well - great idea.
 

Calina

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44
how people think nothing of making an appointment to see a property late evening and not turning up etc...
My personal experience is of agents not turning up or turning up 20 minutes late. My time is valuable too.

Murray you're in an industry where there are some very good people and there are quite a few bad people. You're also in an industry which is heading for a down turn which will leave a few people in some dire straits and society will be looking for a scape goat.

But your industry has not aided itself. Representatives of your industry have defended morally bankrupt although not technically illegal practices such as ghost bids. Representatives of your industry have abdicated responsibility for regulation - when the time comes for estate agents to be regulated, they will almost certainly scream for self regulation - so why isn't it being done now? I have some sympathy for the good guys but my experience, while limited, is that they do not form a majority in your industry.

For me the issue is this: a house purchase is, for the vast majority of people, the single largest financial transaction they will ever have. Yet their sole protection in it is caveat emptor. I have more protection buying a loaf of bread for a euro or two than I have buying a house for a half a million euro. The point is your industry facilitates the exchange of property so you have an interest - or should have an interest in making sure that all aspects of that industry are regulated. There is little point in abdicating that interest by saying you act on behalf of the vendor only. Certainly you may - but you are the link between the purchaser and the vendor and that does bring with it responsibilities and duties of care to the purchaser also. You can't pretend that the service you provide to the vendor is heavily dependent on your link to the purchaser. Otherwise you really shouldn't be in the industry.
 

mf1

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4,153
"For me the issue is this: a house purchase is, for the vast majority of people, the single largest financial transaction they will ever have. "

Agreed.


"Yet their sole protection in it is caveat emptor. I have more protection buying a loaf of bread for a euro or two than I have buying a house for a half a million euro. "

Not true. You have your own common sense and your own solicitor


"There is little point in abdicating that interest by saying you act on behalf of the vendor only. "

Purchaser has own protection in solicitor.

"Certainly you may - but you are the link between the purchaser and the vendor and that does bring with it responsibilities and duties of care to the purchaser also. "

Only a link - they are introduced - it is for them through their solicitors to finalise the deal.

I deal with EA's all the time. Thereare some very good ones and there are, I would say, only a few bad ones. That is my experience. It is unfair to blame EA's for everything. We have grubby and greedy vendors and purchasers - its been a Vendors market for a long time, its been competitive and hard work for purchasers. BUT it is the market that sets the price, purchasers can always walk away. You don't ever have to buy.

And I think that the Primetime programme was sensationalist but hardly heavy hitting.

mf
 

elcato

Moderator
Messages
3,065
Lads - If you want to move on to management I suggest this thread.

One point springs to my mind with all these people saying they will sell themselves from now on. Will you tell potential buyers you have already received (ghost) bids or are you all honest people ? Will you go around telling the propective buyer about all the faults in the house ? Will you tell them you are moving cos the shower down the street are all noisy and drinking in the fields behind late at night ? etc etc .....
 

gearoidmm

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240
Lads - If you want to move on to management I suggest create a seperate thread. One point springs to my mind with all these people saying they will sell themselves from now on. Will you tell potential buyers you have already received (ghost) bids or are you all honest people ? Will you go around telling the propective buyer about all the faults in the house ? Will you tell them you are moving cos the shower down the street are all noisy and drinking in the fields behind late at night ? etc etc .....
LOL, so true.
 

cian8

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Messages
100
I have more protection buying a loaf of bread for a euro or two than I have buying a house for a half a million euro.
I think this is an excellent point and it is one I have been thinking about myself. When I buy any other product in the my back of my mind I am assured because (this is my understanding - I'm not an expert!) the product sold has to be of sufficient quality to serve the purpose for which it is sold, and if it doesn't (regardless of other factors like warranties, 16-day-money-back guarantees etc.) then I have a right to recompense from the vendor, be it a repair, a replacement or a refund. Basically it must do 'what it says on the tin'. Can anyone tell me why this is different for property? For example if a property is sold as X sq metres and turns out to be 10% smaller, surely this contravenes consumer laws and the purchaser is entitled to some comeback.

So although I think that we need much more effective regulation in this sector, are purchasers not already protected by basic consumer laws? Am I missing something?

Not true. You have your own common sense and your own solicitor
Thats a bit flippant don't you think? What good is either your common sense or solicitor when some problem turns up after closing the sale of a property, I am sure you can search other threads on this board to see that very little can be done to force the vendor/developer to make amends. (Ideally said problems should be uncovered before closing but this isn't always possible)

To continue the loaf of bread analogy. If the bread is gone off within its use-by date you will be entitled to a refund/replacement. If the bread said it was white and turned out to be brown you will be entitled to a refund/replacement. If it says 500g and it is 400g you will be entitled to a refund/replacement..... etc. Furthermore, if you are not satisfied by the vendor, then you may bring your complaint to various consumer agencies and even take legal action. In all likelihoods if your complaint is valid, you will be protected by law and will eventually be able to enjoy your toast/sambo! Unlike buying property.
 
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Olly64

Guest
i think the ea on prime time wont have much business after that documentary, what about simply mortgage, do they not have to sign a secreacy statment before going into business?
 

derryman

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108
Probably off topic - but I notice that poor estate agent Murray (or is that Carlos...) posts a lot during normal working hours (on a late lunch myself mind you).

I guess the property market must be a bit slow at the moment.

Got to go ......... before the "cabbage" police catch up with me for mentioning the taboo subject..............
 
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