Public sector bashing-anyone else sick of it?

[Jack2008]

Grahamo,

You are taking this very personally - There is wide spread abuse of tax payers money within the Public Service. This is a well known and documented fact only disputed by the workers within the Public Service and their unions!
If there is wastage within the Private Sector it has nothing to do with the general public - It is an issue for the company involved!

 

[rabbit]

We simply can't affort to have 11% of the workforce to be public sector workers who earn on average 44.55% more than the average industrial wage or 21.35% than their counterparts in the private sector.

I agree.


We are borrowing 15 billion this year - if we could not borrow that ( and the day will come when we cannot, given we already have to pay double the interest rate Germany does on its borrowings ) then we would have to cut public expenditure by half.

As a german businessman said to be recently, there could be food riots on the streets here yet.

 

[Birroc]

I agree.


We are borrowing 15 billion this year - if we could not borrow that ( and the day will come when we cannot, given we already have to pay double the interest rate Germany does on its borrowings ) the we would have to cut public expenditure by half.

As a german businessman said to be recently, there could be food riots on the streets here yet.

I know people already planning for this possibility - stashing long lasting foodstuffs. We're borrowing 55 million a day and we are begging unions to help us out.

 

[grahamo]

Grahamo,

You are taking this very personally - There is wide spread abuse of tax payers money within the Public Service. This is a well known and documented fact only disputed by the workers within the Public Service and their unions!
If there is wastage within the Private Sector it has nothing to do with the general public - It is an issue for the company involved!

Yes you're right,I probably am taking it too personally , and I apologise for doing so.. we've all heard the stories of execs going on junkets etc. but the average worker doesn't abuse the system, doesn't abuse sick pay, doesn't get huge mileage allowances etc. etc.and when people generalise they personally insult everyone in the PS. Roll on these cutbacks and maybe then people will move on to their next victims

P.S. This thread was supposed to be a refuge from all the PS bashing for PS workers who post but we're getting even more abuse over here

 

[Dreamerb]

But you are not picking up the tab for the wastage within the Private sector - that is the difference!

Uh, what?! Of course we are, all of us. Waste in the private sector costs us money by feeding into higher costs for goods and services.

And before someone comes in to yell "But the markets sort that out!", that isn't necessarily the case either. There are a lot of areas where waste is endemic within an entire sector, or there are quasi-cartels (not formal ones, necessarily, but there's a market leader and many other players follow the same pricing model leaving themselves with the potential for the kind of supernormal profits that positively encourage waste), or there's deliberate lack of transparency in pricing.

The "Everyone knows there's lots of waste" model just won't wash. There is waste in some areas. There is inefficiency in some areas. Is it a feature unique to or universal within the entire of the very broad public sector? No.

We are audited, we are subject to value-for-money reports, we have to tender many contracts. All of these are control mechanisms. Could they be more extensive and more rigorous? Quite possibly - but there's a substantial administrative cost to these to, so a balance must be achieved between creating and fostering a culture of minimising costs relative to benefits, and imposing high compliance costs by carrying out enormous and comprehensive checks in every area. Anyone who works in any form of audit or audit compliance in public or private sector will recognise the balance that needs to be achieved.

The projects that have - famously and horribly - gone off the rails are the ones which have been under-managed and badly specified; honest specification, good preparation, close monitoring and consistent management focus are key to bringing in projects on time and on budget.

 

[DublinTexas]

So today our fearless leader Brian 'Mugabe' Cowan (to quote Sunny) announced that in his 5 year plan he can might have to look at taxation to ensure we can cover the cost of running this country.

Can someone have a reality check done on Mr. Cowan, his outburst about this being his goverment and him runing it as he sees fit is very bold for an unelected leader of a goverment. Yes I say he is unelected because we did not get the cance to vote for him in the last election, we all voted Bertie because we feelt so sorry for him being constantly bashed.

It is not only time to cut down our public service and have the public service concentrate on what they should do, it also is time for Mr. Cowan to give the public the opportunity to say what they think of his goverment.

It's time to get ride of public services we don't need like the Army (than gain we might need them in case of the food riots when Mr. Cowan's goverment finaly fails) and countless other areas where there is too much waist. Get ride of the majority of boards which in the majority of cases are nothing else than a way of getting people a job. Start selling shares in companies that the goverment has no business to be in like AerLingus, ESB, Board Gais. These all want to be competetive companies so why allow the state to own them? They are not longer providing a service for all without making profit. These are now for profit companies, so let them run free.

This country always had a little touch of a central american banana republic but somehow we are on our way to become more like a south american peoples republic in which citizing the fearless leader results in major outbursts. I wonder if Mr Chavez is coaching Mr. Cowan.

Again, we need a viable public service as much as we need a viable private sector, these need to go hand in hand and they need to complement each other.

At present it's just too much public service.

 

[c00lcarl]

the number of workers in the public sector in 2008 rose by 5,200 to 369,100.

This is an increase of 1.35% which is actually fairly low, especially considering the effects of the downturn were not felt until fairly late in the year

public servants are paid on average € 49,150 per annum in comparison to € 40,500 in the private sector and if you compare that to the average industrial wage of €34,000 than you can draw your own conclusions.

The obvious conclusion is that both sectors are overpaid and need to be brought back in line with the average industrial wage

4,239,848 in population, let's exclude the under 15 years old which are 864,449, which means that about 3,375,399 people are left which could in theory be part of the workforce. Now 369,100 public sector workers makes 10.93% of the total theoretical workforce.

Do we really need nearly 11% of the workforce in the public service?

You are leaving out long term sick, students and pensioners etc, in fact the public service makes up nearer 17% which is way too many and should be addressed, around 130,000 of the number you mention are employed by the HSE.

Getting back to the point of the thread, I am sick of misinformed individuals posting ill thoughtout comments about the public sector which no substance to back them, most of the posts just appear to be peoples opinions put forward as fact. The fact of the matter is that no single section of society can correct the situation we are in.

This is an excellent opportunity to introduce more efficient work practices into the public sector and address some of the deficiencies and wasteful processes (and senior management/Govt are the ones to blame for these not being addressed previously, rather than the lower level general grades) that have been tolerated due to the excess of money that has been available over the last 10 years.

PS. I see that many PS bashers are fond of quoting ESRI calls for cuts in the public sector, but ESRI have actually called for pay cuts across both sectors.

 

[Sunny]

PS. I see that many PS bashers are fond of quoting ESRI calls for cuts in the public sector, but ESRI have actually called for pay cuts across both sectors.

Shock and horror. I think you find that every sensible private sector employee has already accepted this. Whereas you have the IMO and Teachers Union and all the other unions who don't represent the majority of private sector workers shouting 'over our dead bodies'....

Damn it. Promised myself not to involved in this pointless debate anymore!

 

[Caveat]

PS. I see that many PS bashers are fond of quoting ESRI calls for cuts in the public sector, but ESRI have actually called for pay cuts across both sectors.

Yes, but as the pay cuts in the private sector have happened/are happening anyway, there is probably little point in highlighting it.

Edit: crossed with Sunny

 

[grahamo]

It's time to get ride of public services we don't need like the Army

Are you for real? But then again who needs publicly funded defence forces, Gardai, Doctors, nurses Teachers etc. I'm sure the private sector will supply all this at a very reasonable, value for money cost to the taxpayer.......NOT!
A perfect example of the kneejerk comments made by some posters!
The reason we are in this state is because of the grossly overpaid, bonus- and target-driven upper echelons of the private, public and political sectors. NOT the PAYE sector, public or private.
And most posters reaction is to throw the toys out of the pram and shout at the top of their voice 'SACK THE WORKERS! They're all lazy b***ards who wouldn't last 2 minutes in the private sector.'

 

[rabbit]

They're all lazy b***ards who wouldn't last 2 minutes in the private sector.'

not all, but many...and do not sack them - just bring down pay levels 20 to 30% to be more in line with the private sector, who do not even have the security. Oh, and get rid of the public sector widely abused "perks" such as the sick days etc.

 

[Purple]

The reason we are in this state is because of the grossly overpaid, bonus- and target-driven upper echelons of the private, public and political sectors. NOT the PAYE sector, public or private.
And most posters reaction is to throw the toys out of the pram and shout at the top of their voice 'SACK THE WORKERS! They're all lazy b***ards who wouldn't last 2 minutes in the private sector.'

Most of those "grossly overpaid, bonus- and target-driven upper echelons of the private [and] public [sectors]" are PAYE.
Anyone who works for a living is a worker.

 

[DublinTexas]

Are you for real? But then again who needs publicly funded defence forces, Gardai, Doctors, nurses Teachers etc. I'm sure the private sector will supply all this at a very reasonable, value for money cost to the taxpayer.......NOT!
A perfect example of the kneejerk comments made by some posters!
The reason we are in this state is because of the grossly overpaid, bonus- and target-driven upper echelons of the private, public and political sectors. NOT the PAYE sector, public or private.
And most posters reaction is to throw the toys out of the pram and shout at the top of their voice 'SACK THE WORKERS! They're all lazy b***ards who wouldn't last 2 minutes in the private sector.'

Yes I am for real, what is the value the defence forces bring to us that can not be done with other parts of the existing public service. Escorting money trucks should be done by the police force not the army. Sending troups overseas if we have to borrow for their pay and action is the other thing that needs to go.

I'm not saying that we need to slash the whole defence forces, but we most certainly should bring it to a level that can concentrate on the core business.

Maybe we should install a mandatory service provision for 18 month or so giving youngsters the option to either join the defence forces or work in social institutions for that time like it's done in several continental countries. That why we get teenagers off the street, free professional healthcare workers to do the important task and let the youngsters deliver the home care or food delivery. Saves money and allows at the same time to bring some work manners into the youngers.

And if you read my 1st post you know that I am actualy thinking that gardai are not paid enough for their job.

I'm all for a public service delivering the core business defence, security, education, infrastructure and guidance to ensure that a free market does not run amok (which it did with the banks recently and that despite several regulators looking after them).

Your argument that the upper echelons are responsible is correct but we can't currently do anything to cut the pay of a bank CEO until the state takes ownership and even than nothing will come out of it. And I'm actualy against taking ownership.

We can't do anything against the echelons in the public service because we don't have the option at present to change our goverment because his majesty thinks he does not need to listen to the people.

The solution is a slick public service concentrating on the core business, delivering value for money and that is accountable to the public in an open way.

But if I day after day see my local council service parks and garden department parked down the road for 4 hours on a field that is not even theres doing nothing than I realy question your theory that it's only the upper echelons.

Of if I see the local planing inspector going from house to house to check the satelite dishes on the front of the house for planing permission but when he see's you are Irish he let's you off with a "now you should have had a permission" but to the non nationals he's like "take it down or you go to jail" than I question his value.

Or if the local council stops a private company from collecting glas because it's not waist but at the same time waists money to tell me that I should choose them because they offer better service by collecting glas than I really question why we have them at all.

Sure these examples are just out of the top of my head but I think they show it's not only the upper echelons.

 

[Complainer]

Would say that it is a possibility that the person who was talking about the sick leave was a prison officer. They are notorious for taking sick leave.

Perhaps if you were getting beaten up, or getting soaked in boiling water, or getting faeces thrown at you, or getting HIV+ blood or saliva over you on a fairly regular basis, you might be notorious for taking sick leave too? As it happens, since 2005, sick leave is covered by other staff at no extra to the prison service.

But you are not picking up the tab for the wastage within the Private sector - that is the difference!

So who do you think picks up the tab for private sector wastage?

Complainer, if this is a genuine statement I think you are being very naive.

I know 6 people fairly well who all work in different areas/locations of the public sector and civil service - every one of them simply add their annual sick leave entitlement to their holiday entitlement as if it was a completely normal and natural thing to do.

In fact I'm sure I recall public sector workers on this very site, on more than a few occasions, admitting that this is a widespread practice.

Here's a suggestion. You name the depts and agencies in question. I'll submit FOI requests at €20 a go to get the sick leave entitlement and sick leave taken figures for 2007 or 2008. If the average leave taken comes to less than 50% of the entitlement, you'll stump up to cover the costs of the FOI requests. Deal?

And, why aren't you reporting these individuals in writing as well?

LOL and the Chief Officer will do what? Imagine what bureaucracy will get in his way if he tries to fight sick days and imagine the fight with the unions to boot.

Well, given that he'll be assuming that you've also sent the report to Shane Ross and/or Leo Verodokar and/or Daily Mail and/or Joe Duffy, he can't ignore it. And has anyone got any concrete examples of how or where unions have blocked addressing abuse of sick leave, or is this just one of those urban myths?

 

[Caveat]

Here's a suggestion. You name the depts and agencies in question.

No thanks, I don't think so. Obviously.

And, why aren't you reporting these individuals in writing as well?

A number of reasons which I thought would have been fairly obvious:

• No proof.
• No reason to believe that anything at all would be done about it.
• If there even was one, no confidence that any investigation would be thorough, professional or impartial.
• My own privacy reasons - lack of confidentiality/integrity.

But why should I report these people when people in their own organisation and other public sector workers on this very site accept that this is a problem but don't do anything about it?

 

[boris]

Perhaps if you were getting beaten up, or getting soaked in boiling water, or getting faeces thrown at you, or getting HIV+ blood or saliva over you on a fairly regular basis, you might be notorious for taking sick leave too? As it happens, since 2005, sick leave is covered by other staff at no extra to the prison service.

Actually complainer the thread here was discussing the way persons within the public/civil service seem to assume that Sick Leave was part of their annual leave entitlement. Whether or not there is any extra cost to the prison service is not what we were discussing. Anyway this prison officer I met was within the last year so attitudes have not changed since 2005.

In my years in the Civil Service I have not had the occasion to work with someone who had this attitude and if they had, I imagine it would not have been tolerated very long i.e. take leave and pay off them.

I was out for 4 weeks last year after an operation. I had to submit not alone a doctor cert but also a written report from both myself and my supervisor explaining why. If the case had eventually been problematic I would have been referred to the Chief Medical Officer. Also I have seen and heard of increments/promotions being withheld due to sick leave.

So basically it is not a free for all with sick leave for the Civil Service. Just because there are a few bad eggs, don't make us all out to be the same.

 

[Complainer]

No thanks, I don't think so. Obviously.

Why not?

 

[Dundhoone]

Public sector numbers have increased - BECAUSE WE WANTED THEM TO.

We voted in FF, on the basis of more Gardai on the streets, more and different services in health care, Local authorities that didnt just tar potholes, less pupils per teacher, more university places and so on.

The public service is a slow beast but it has responded to these demands. And now its an about face turn within a very very short period.

Whats with the constant whining? If the peoples mandate to now reduce these services, thats what will happen.

Your gran wont be able to get that nurses visit she had once a week. The police will be slower to respond and you will wait longer in the ER of the hospital. But were living beyond our means so thats what has to happen.

 

[Caveat]

Why not?

I thought the implication was clear enough - I have no intention of exposing myself or this site to the possibility of threats of legal action or any confrontation with public sector/civil service bodies.

 

[BoscoTalking]

Public sector numbers have increased - BECAUSE WE WANTED THEM TO.

We voted in FF, on the basis of more Gardai on the streets, more and different services in health care, Local authorities that didnt just tar potholes, less pupils per teacher, more university places and so on.

The public service is a slow beast but it has responded to these demands. And now its an about face turn within a very very short period.

Ah come on - do you think FF made all these things happened? reduced class sizes, more gardai on the streets etc? I don't - numbers increased and workload decreased because we kept asking the unions what they wanted... Bertie set the country up for a huge fall and its happening at the same time as a global downturn - thats the saving grace for FF.