Proposed abortion Referendum
- Thread starter cremeegg
- Start date
This is an interesting point. I am concerned that abortion will become normalised if the amendment passes, and while I see the need for abortion in certain cases, I would hate to see it becoming just a normal choice. With the number of abortions in the UK being approx 25% the number of live births, and something similar in France, it seems to me that abortion has been normalised in those countries.
Have you more info on the Portuguese experience.
It's perfectly reasonable expect we had over 30 years to come up with something more reasonable. Every time something was suggested it was met with a huge campaign against with fear arguments about the flood gates opening. Right to travel would open the floodgates. Didn't happen. Right to information would lead to abortion information booths and advertising all over the place. Didn't happen. I remember the protection of life during pregnancy bill and the argument being made that women all over the country would be running to the doctor claiming they were suicidal so they could have an abortion. That also didn't happen.
No doubt others will have more detailed information but from what I can gather Portugal legalised abortion in 2007, and after an initial spike in the numbers aborted (which coincided with the economic crash) the figure has dropped back . . they have 1 abortion for around every 5 live births.
The 8th is the floodgate. It has been under sustained pressure for many years. With a Yes it is swept away. Hopefully our self-proclaimed pro-life friends Harris and Varadkar will be held to all their assurances that this will be a restrictive regime not at all like the UK experience. Abortion has been legal in England for over 50 years, it takes time for it to be normalised and an excepted part of the culture. We won't get to UK rates overnight.
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http://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-employers-vote-4030144-May2018/
"Has urged employers to be flexible with their staff on Friday in order to allow people to get home to vote."
Why didn't you hold the vote on a Saturday??? Instead he acts as if he had nothingto do with it and outsources the solution to a problem he could have fixed to somebody else!
"Has urged employers to be flexible with their staff on Friday in order to allow people to get home to vote."
Why didn't you hold the vote on a Saturday??? Instead he acts as if he had nothingto do with it and outsources the solution to a problem he could have fixed to somebody else!
Because the teachers wouldn't get a day off?? Stand by for off topic discussion about public sector pay and conditions.....
Ceist Beag
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I based my comment on the piece from Katie Hannon on Prime Time last week - see https://www.rte.ie/news/video/2018/0518/964306-abortion-legislation/. The rates since it was legalised is available at http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-portugal.html.
The figure mentioned prior to legalisation is approximately 20,000 per year so if true, would mean a reduction in rates since it was legalised.
Poling Stations are open 7am to 10pm. There's no reason why people can't get to one if they want and no reason why anyone would need time off work.
Portugal legalised hard case abortion in the 80s. Numbers were low. Others traveled to Spain for abortion or had illegal abortion in Portugal. Katie prefaces the 20k figure by saying "it's impossible to verity but studies suggest . ." I'm not sure how heavily that can be leaned on but it suits RTE's narrative. In 2007 they brought in a 10/12 week, wait 3 days, plus various grounds to 24 weeks regime . . similar to what we propose. Numbers climbed to over 20,000 during the economic crash and have fallen back to 16,000 in recent years. Methinks it would be a stretch to think that legalising abortion leads to fewer abortions.
Yes, it's nonsense to suggest it.
That is not the aspect of the Portuguese experience that I was curious about.
My concern is that if the referendum is passed abortion will be normalised. The UK and French statistics seem to show that the number of abortions is about 25% the number of births. I wondered if the figure in Portugal show a different story.
This gives the number of abortions in Portugal in 2015 as 18.5% the number of live births (20% in 2011), less than the UK or France, but still not exactly rare.
It seems to me that if the referendum is passed the number of abortions in Ireland is unlikely to be significantly less than this 18% to 25% region.
in 2015 there were 65,536 live births in Ireland and 3,751 abortions in the UK and the Netherlands carried out on women giving Irish addresses. That is 5.7%
While one can get too caught up in numbers it seems to me reasonable to suggest that the number of abortions performed on Irish women will increase threefold if the referendum is carried.
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You would need to add abortion-pill abortions to get the true current rate in Ireland. Plus some more for those not giving Irish addresses for fear of disclosure.
I do think there are differences between Ireland and other countries. The current 30/35/40% no-vote demographic will never consider abortion. The 'totally against abortion in all circumstances' percentage in the UK seems to be sub-10%. So just as a starting point, our rates should always be at least a third lower.
I do think there are differences between Ireland and other countries. The current 30/35/40% no-vote demographic will never consider abortion. The 'totally against abortion in all circumstances' percentage in the UK seems to be sub-10%. So just as a starting point, our rates should always be at least a third lower.
Duke of Marmalade
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It’s sobering to think that c. 10,000 births p.a. in Ireland are of unwanted children. Such misery for child and parents alike.
Sobering indeed. Its Tuam babies, magdalen laundries, etc. for modern times.
Yes, much better to kill them than put them up for adoption because, like, nothing has changes in this country in the last 50 years.
Ceist Beag
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As orka said, this figure of 3,751 is not a true figure. There will be many others who did not give an Irish address and also those who used abortion XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (which is conservatively put at 1,000 per year but may well be higher than this). So the real number is probably closer to 10%. Therefore I would suggest that it unreasonable to suggest that the number of abortions would increase threefold. I would concede that it does seem reasonable that it will increase, certainly in the immediate years, but it's very hard to know what it will be in say 10 years time, which is where the Portugese experience is of some relevance.
That's no different to saying how many would be alive if we had aborted half the dictators in the world i.e. pointless. Or what if that guy who killed the poor girl at the weekend was one of those unwanted children but the parents had to have him...Now an innocent young girl is dead because of the 8th Amendment.... Hardly a reason to vote Yes or No.
Ah no, it is different. It's still not a reason to vote Yes or No but it does show the real seriousness of the vote we are casting.