Proposed abortion Referendum

Discussion in 'Letting Off Steam' started by cremeegg, Aug 30, 2014.

  1. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    The number of Fine Gael TDs now publicly advocating a referendum to repeal the constitutional provisions on abortion is up to 2.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ague-s-call-for-abortion-referendum-1.1912286

    I am sure that a lot of steam will be let off on the topic in the coming months. That is not my purpose here.

    The issue of abortion in the case of rape has been mentioned by both Olivia Mitchell and Regina O Doherty.

    If any provision is made regarding abortion in the case of rape how will rape be defined. Is it when a woman says she has been raped, then that is abortion on demand, at least for those who would be happy to claim rape.

    If it is when rape has been proved in court (and after all rape is a serious criminal offence) then in effect that is no abortion in the case of rape.

    And just to put my cards on the table, I believe no woman should have to carry any child against her will.

    I also believe that to destroy an unborn child is horrendous.

    If anyone can reconcile those two beliefs, I will have a coherent position on abortion.
     
  2. Leper

    Leper Frequent Poster

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    The first two sentences are irreconcilable. Twenty years ago I would have argued that most abortions are murder. I do not have that belief today. I agree with the 2nd sentence in the quote.

    There is going to be much emotive talk (probably from loudmouths who do not care anyway) over the next long term months. This whole issue will be manna from heaven for our politicians who can use the issue to deflect from the real state of the country.

    The Abortion Referendum must come. But, every two-bit journalist, politician, activist, eejit will loudly have their say. The hypocrites will have a field-day.

    The poor "abandoned" and in-fear girl who cannot afford to have her baby and is an emotional wreck will be cast aside as usual.

    So, for once, can be have a referendum confined to people who care, are involved? It is about women,I do not jest, let females only vote.
     
  3. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    That sums up my views on this as well.
     
  4. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    I completely disagree. There are 3 parties involved; the mother, the unborn child and the father.
     
  5. jhegarty

    jhegarty Frequent Poster

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    That however is assumes an answer to the central question.

    Is there 1 or 2 people involved ?

    If there is only 1 then there is no problem with abortion on demand , if there is 2 people involved then it should be banned in all cases.
     
  6. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    I notice that you don't mention society or the state as an involved party.

    In Ireland today, rightly or wrongly, the law seems to be very much involved.
     
  7. Leper

    Leper Frequent Poster

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    OK, let's assume I'm female and with an unwanted pregnancy. I want an abortion. I do not inform anybody I'm pregnant. So I arrange a "shopping trip" to London and have an abortion. An Irish solution . . . no need for a referendum . . .I think
     
  8. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    That is basically the way things are at present. There are at least two problems with that.

    The first is that the cost involved is prohibitive for many.

    More importantly to my mind is that this is a fundamentally dishonest position for Irish society to take. As we mature as a people we seem to feel the need to take these issues out from hiding and deal with them honestly.
     
  9. Leper

    Leper Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
    The Cost Difference:- Nobody will convince me that the medical profession in Ireland will carry out abortions cheaper than what's available in the UK even with airfares included.

    The Reality:- (a) Somebody seeking an abortion in the UK will not be claiming suicidal tendencies etc and will not have to prove anything there.
    (b) Whether or Which the option is there and like always will be used and for many nobody will know other than the patient.

    To believe anything else is futile.

    And as for "when we mature as a people" words our political representatives cannot wait to use. Please pass the bucket.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  10. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Forget for a moment the specifics of this issue and instead look at the premise of the argument; something is legal in a neighbouring country and our citizens can travel to that country freely so that something should be legal here. To me that is fundamentally flawed.
    Irish people go to countries where drugs are legal, where the age of consent is 12 etc. That doesn’t mean that those things should be legal here.
    If we as a people decide that the life of an unborn child cannot be ignored when a woman has an unwanted pregnancy then what’s legal or illegal in another jurisdiction is of no consequence.
    I hope we never get to a point of maturity as a people where we consider the termination of a viable unborn child as an acceptable form of contraception
     
  11. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    Anyone who was an adult in Ireland in the 70s or 80s knows that Irish society has developed a more mature approach to many issues since then.

    AT that point the law and and society's attitude on many issues reflected an unthinking acceptance of centuries old ideas.

    Since then we have considered and decided new approaches to many issues.

    We no longer allow teachers to beat children in schools.

    We no longer criminalise homosexuals

    We no longer force people to stay in marriages against their will

    We no longer try to force unionists to join the 26 counties against their will.

    Most of these changes occurred as a result of intense public debate and with widespread public support, and were mediated through the political process. The changes were both legal and in the mindset of the people.

    So don't tell me we haven't matured as a society. And your cynicism about politicians is just sloganising.

    The one issue that has not been resolved in this process is abortion. Not because we haven't discussed it but because the issue is intrinsically difficult.
     
  12. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    Good post cremeegg, +1
     
  13. michaelm

    michaelm Frequent Poster

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    I could not agree more with the above.
     
  14. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    If we had abortion there's be a 9 month waiting list anyway.
    Now that's an Irish solution to the problem.
     
  15. Leper

    Leper Frequent Poster

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    Let's keep this issue with Abortion, not with teachers who beat children, nor with the homosexual issue, nor with divorce, nor with hunting unionists into with a united Ireland. We are talking about the right to abortion here.

    Every issue that came to light in dear old Ireland had a truckload of bandwagon-jumpers come on board along the way.

    Whether we ever have legalised abortion in Ireland matters not a whit whether we are a "mature" nation or not.

    Cora from Corofin who has an unwanted pregnancy at this moment has the option of boarding a flight from Shannon to London and will arrive there faster than it takes her to drive to the outskirts of Dublin. She can have her abortion and be back in Corofin almost without being missed.

    We can argue 'til the cows come home about all issues on abortion, but Cora won't wait around while our politicians, clergy, medical experts etc talk their brains out. Whether we like it or not abortion-on-demand is on our door-step.

    I still stand by my original post.
     
  16. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    I don't think that this argument is being made, certainly not by me.

    The fact that abortion is legal in the UK means that there is less political pressure in Ireland to allow abortion than there otherwise would be.

    In the US a major argument in support of legalising abortion is that criminalising abortion leads to illegal and unsafe backstreet abortion. Bill Clinton said abortion should be "rare legal and safe"

    Illegal and unsafe abortions are largely unheard of in Ireland because of the availability of abortion in the UK.

    The point in relation to the UK, is that because they have abortion there we can ban it here without having to accept the full consequences of that ban. That is hardly a mature position for a society to take.
     
  17. michaelm

    michaelm Frequent Poster

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    That point still doesn't represent a strong argument for the introduction of abortion here; the mantra that availability of abortion is the mark of a mature society is ill-conceived.
     
  18. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    I must be particularly thick tonged (or penned) today.

    I am not making any argument in favour of abortion. I am not saying that the availability of abortion is the mark of a mature society.

    I am saying that several thousand Irish abortions in Britain each year indicates that we are turning a blind eye to the issue of abortion. I am not offering any solution, just saying that as part of our maturing as a society this is a matter left unresolved.

    I don't know my own opinion on abortion, I started this thread to address the idea which is gaining ground in Ireland at the moment that we should permit abortion in the case of rape.

    My point on abortion in the case of rape is that in practice it would be a complete minefield. If abortion was legal in the case of rape. Who would say that the pregnancy was a result of rape. The woman, the doctor, the courts. In each case it would be a complete nonsense.
     
  19. michaelm

    michaelm Frequent Poster

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    Is it gaining ground? Despite elements of the media cheer-leading for such, I don't think so. Unlike you I do know my own opinion and that is that any right to life should not be predicated on how conception transpired.
    Few would disagree with that.
     
  20. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    Yes it is gaining ground. Here is James Reilly in today's paper.

    "Absolutely rape is a dreadful and heinous crime and that the consequences for women who become pregnant as a result of that is an extremely difficult situation."