Property taxes to include BER

Thirsty

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Full of bright ideas today!

So for reasons I never fully understood, we chose to implement LPT based on market value; and self assessed market value at that.

Subjective, open to interpretation, two houses on same street different market value, all that mularky.

What if we treated LPT like motor tax?

Using combination of square footage & weighted BER rating.

Back of envelope figures.

Rating per square foot is say 20%

So 3000 sq ft = €600

But house has BER of A2, so gets 50% discount = net LPT €300.

1000 sq feet @ 20% = €200

BER rating D or below attracts a weight of say 1.5 so property tax is €300.

Your 3000 sq ft property with a BER of E would get you an LPT of 600 * 1.5 = €900

So there's an incentive to either downsize or improve your BER.

Much as the aim is re Motor Tax.
 
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kinnjohn

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A lot of available construction labour around where I live is getting used up upgrading existing houses,
in fact, some builders have so much work upgrading they are not taking any new builds for the next two years,

Good Idea if you are already on the housing ladder,
 

NoRegretsCoyote

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So reasons I never fully understood, we chose to implement LPT based on market value; and self assessed market value at that.
Because nearly everyone knows very roughly what their house is worth and, if they don't, it's not too much mental effort to work it out.

Complicated concepts like BER per square metre or site value are...................complicated.

The further a tax base departs from simple a concept, the less equitable people tend to see it......
 

Thirsty

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I would argue that square footage and BER are much more defined & measurable.
 

odyssey06

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I would argue that square footage and BER are much more defined & measurable.
There is a lot of subjective input into the BER report, two different assessors could give two different BERs.
The BER cert process would need to be tightened up.

Plus if you did this, you would encourage people to up their BERs, which would mean less property tax.
Property tax is meant to fund local services, it's not general taxation.

Square footage seems to make more sense.
 

NoRegretsCoyote

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I would argue that square footage and BER are much more defined & measurable.
Perhaps, but much more difficult for Revenue to assess.

If property has been undervalued it can be clawed back on sale. Not sure how you would do this for uncerdeclaration of square footage.

Local Property Tax is......a tax.
 

noproblem

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Maybe the Goverment should look more closely at its take from the LPT. If for example a house sells for 50% more than the house is valued, then an extra 10% tax should apply, 40% more 7.5%, 30% 5%, etc. People might then start to value their property at the correct price. Likewise, reverse %'ages if it sells for less.
Someone mentioned to me the other day that the AMV given by auctioneers when selling property should follow these tax increases as well, but we know that people would up the value to avoid that. By increasing the tax paid on raised sales value might get people to do a proper property valuation when paying LPT in the 1st place.
 

Thirsty

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Perhaps, but much more difficult for Revenue to assess.
We already have a requirement to get an official BER cert for sales / rental. You can't just tick a box & self declare your BER.

Not that much further of a step to get sq footage certified in the same way.

Local Property Tax is......a tax.
I agree, like motor tax & tv tax & sales tax ;)

It's how you assess that tax is the question

Tv tax is a one off; doesn't matter how big, fancy or old your TV is.

Motor tax is now designed to move people away from older less efficient cars & is not based on a self declared value.

VAT is charged as a % of the given cost; easy to calculate & understand.
 

kinnjohn

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If you don't own a house, you don't pay LPT.
The point I was making is we need to be building more houses,
messing around using tax to redirect construction labour away from building new houses is a bad idea,
WE are great with coming up with tax loopholes that come back to haunt us,
 
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Thirsty

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The point I was making is we need to be building more houses,
messing around using tax to redirect construction labour away from building new houses is a bad idea,
WE are great with coming up with tax loopholes that come back to haunt us,
Bit of a leap I think.
 

kinnjohn

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Bit of a leap I think.
No, It is not,
Available construction labor is limiting the number of houses being built at present,
Some builders are not taking on any new houses for the next two years because of the shortage of labor,
 

Thirsty

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It's a bit of a leap to go from proposing a better method of estimating property tax to every non-A2 rated home owner deciding to upgrade their home from BER D or below all at the same time; to the extent that the entire house building programme is at risk!

I know more than a few people who pay higher car tax but won't change their car yet.
 

kinnjohn

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Correct
but there were many more who did change their car,
if the same happened after a Change in LPT with your suggestion fewer houses get built,
 

Thirsty

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Correct
but there were many more who did change their car,
if the same happened after a Change in LPT with your suggestion fewer houses get built,
I don't see that happening to be honest; in any event taking steps to improve the energy efficiency of our homes is essential
 

The Horseman

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Perhaps, but much more difficult for Revenue to assess.

If property has been undervalued it can be clawed back on sale. Not sure how you would do this for uncerdeclaration of square footage.

Local Property Tax is......a tax.
Why should lpt be based on the value of a property. How can two properties of exactly the same size in the same locality pay more tax just because one property is worth more than the other.

Why not base it on square footage and cross reference the property with local councils planning departments records which show which properties have extensions and the size of them.

Yet again the lpt is a blunt tax similar to car tax. A more equitable motor tax should be based on fuel consumption be it petrol, diesel or electricity.
 

Leo

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Why should lpt be based on the value of a property. How can two properties of exactly the same size in the same locality pay more tax just because one property is worth more than the other.
Value is often linked to local services and amenities. Would it be fair for the owner of a €1.5 million semi-d in D4 to pay the same as the owner of a €100k rural bungalow with no local services and private well and waste treatment just because they're the same size? Using value is possibly the best way to introduce ability to pay as well without just linking it directly to income.

Why not base it on square footage and cross reference the property with local councils planning departments records which show which properties have extensions and the size of them.
Unless they fall under exempted development.

Yet again the lpt is a blunt tax similar to car tax. A more equitable motor tax should be based on fuel consumption be it petrol, diesel or electricity.
A number of lobby groups have been working over the years the keep that off the table, so motor tax continues to be assessed on that potential to pollute rather than the reality.
 

NoRegretsCoyote

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Why not base it on square footage and cross reference the property with local councils planning departments records which show which properties have extensions and the size of them.
Local planning departments have very little reliable, consistent data on square footage of houses. BER data on square footage is of middling quality, but most houses have never had a BER assessment.

Meanwhile, the property price register doesn't lie.
 

Thirsty

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Meanwhile, the property price register doesn't lie.
Houses will only be listed there if they were sold in the last 10 years or so.

It doesn't tell you what condition it was in; or why house A might sell for more than house B in the same village.

Its a daft variable to base a tax on.
 

Thirsty

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BER data on square footage is of middling quality, but most houses have never had a BER assessment.
Square footage (is metreage a word I wonder?) isn't hard to measure.

I agree many houses do not have a BER at present.

We brought in NCT testing on a phased basis to improve the safety and emissions of our cars - we can do the same for BERs for housing.
 
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