PTSB Overcharged couple reject PTSB’s ‘derisory’ compensation offer

Brendan Burgess

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Just to clarify - I have been critical of a number of aspects of this redress scheme.

For example, the interest rate should have been reduced automatically - the borrower should not have been asked to choose it.

The adjustment to the balance should have been done automatically, the borrower should not have had to choose it.

The borrower should be notified that the refund and compensation would be paid to the account from which the mortgage payments were being made in, say 30 days time, unless the borrower chose a different bank account.

Effectively, all of the best options should have been chosen automatically.

Brendan
 

Sarenco

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Well, if it was me, I would want to be absolutely assured, having taken appropriate legal advice, that signing and returning any acceptance letter would in no way prejudice any other avenues of recourse that I might want to pursue and otherwise would not jeopardise any entitlements I might have.

I would be particularly concerned to ensure that signing any letter did not lock in whatever revised rate is specified by PTSB, did not create any baseline around which any future settlement discussions might revolve and did not contain any other tripwires in terms of time barring claims, etc.

An abundance of caution in this matter is fully warranted in my opinion.
 

Brendan Burgess

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Sarenco

Did you read the redress letter?

I get the impression that people contributing to this thread are confusing ptsb's "offer" with a normal offer in full and final settlement. I think that the word "offer" is wrong and is misleading people. It should be described as a "minimum payment of compensation" or "payment on account".

Why would you need a legal opinion on the following:

"You may return the instruction forms to us to avail of the tracker rate mortgage and/or to direct us to adjust your mortgage account and to pay the redress and compensation amounts to you and still choose to appeal these issues in due course without having to return any money to permanent tsb."

It is said a number of times in the letter and in the press releases.

You can accept the compensation on offer and still appeal


Brendan
 

Sarenco

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Hi Brendan

If the redress and compensation payment was described as an "interim payment" or a "payment on account", I would be much more relaxed about signing and returning the letter. However, you have to direct PTSB to make the payments (essentially accepting their offer) and then subsequently appeal the issues.

That seems very odd to me and I would want to consult with a solicitor to make sure that signing the letter will not cause any issues down the line. It may not give rise to any issues at all but I would want to receive advice from a solicitor (with professional indemnity insurance) to this effect.
 
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matan

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Your not returning a letter sarenco its two forms of instruction, one for refund to be paid to bank of choice and one to either stay with variable or chose tracker, maybe im wrong but they appear fairly clear and simple!
 

Sarenco

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You may well be right that I am being overly cautious but given the sums involved, and the behaviour of PTSB to date, I would be of the view that a high level of caution is warranted.

One issue that strikes me is that by returning the forms, a borrower is accepting the new tracker rate being offered by PTSB and this would not, on the face of it, appear to be a provisional or interim agreement. As the level of redress and compensation is, in large part, calculated by reference to this new rate, that would appear to me to be an important decision.

Can any dispute over the new rate be included in a subsequent appeal or other court action? Perhaps, but I personally would want a solicitor to confirm the position.
 

Brendan Burgess

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One issue that strikes me is that by returning the forms, a borrower is accepting the new tracker rate being offered by PTSB and this would not, on the face of it, appear to be a provisional or interim agreement.
I am genuinely at a loss why people don't accept what is clearly written down. Here it is again.

"You may return the instruction forms to us to avail of the tracker rate mortgage and/or to direct us to adjust your mortgage account and to pay the redress and compensation amounts to you and still choose to appeal these issues in due course without having to return any money to permanent tsb."
 

Sarenco

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Well, it's not crystal clear to me that "these issues" (i.e. the issues that can be appealed) includes the accepted tracker rate. The fact that the sentence goes on to talk about the fact that an appeal will not require the return of money might suggest that "these issues" only refers to the amount of the redress and compensation payments.

If people are comfortable that they understand the full ramifications of returning these instructions then that's obviously fine. But if it was me, I would seek legal advice.
 

Brendan Burgess

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Does their FAQ reassure you that the tracker rate being offered is "an issue"?

If a customer believes they should have been offered a different tracker rate. Can they appeal the rate they have been offered?
The tracker rate which customers have been offered as part of this redress programme is the rate permanent tsb was contractually obliged to offer to that customer at the relevant date, as per their mortgage loan conditions. The customer has a right to appeal if they are not happy with this rate, but that appeal will be adjudicated based on the customer’s mortgage loan conditions.
 

voleurs

Registered User
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I can't link but there's an update on this case in the papers today. Good news for the couple. I'll be taking the same course of action myself.
 

Brendan Burgess

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Good news for the couple.
Nonsense. It is no news, neither good or bad.

The headline is completely misleading and was written by someone who did not understand the case, or who had not read the article.

Couple to be repaid €61k they were overcharged for mortgage - after rejecting 'derisory' €6k offer

It implies that they are getting €61k instead of €6k,.

The truth is that they were always going to get the €61k and the €6k

The matter was briefly mentioned before Mr Justice Robert Haughton today (Thursday). Following talks between the parties the judge was told by Richard Kean SC for the couple the action could be adjourned generally, with liberty to reapply to have the proceedings re-entered if necessary.

Afterwards Mr Liam Fitzgerald, a solicitor based in Lusk Co Dublin, said it had been agreed between the parties that he and his partner are to be repaid the €61,000 PTSB admitted overcharging them.


They could have got that last week.

I hope that ptsb pursue them for their legal costs.
 

voleurs

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The difference being that they are getting €61,000 and now it is their choice where they place that money.
 

Brendan Burgess

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voleurs

Either you or I is misreading this case. They had no need to go to court to get this money. They were entitled to it. ptsb told them they were entitled to it. All they had to do was direct which bank account it was to be paid into.

Brendan
 

voleurs

Registered User
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6
Perhaps I am wrong, I am no expert.

But looking at my own offer the only option available was for this money to be placed against my mortgage as an adjustment.

The compensation amount will be paid into a bank account of my choice.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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But looking at my own offer the only option available was for this money to be placed against my mortgage as an adjustment.
That is a separate issue altogether and has no relevance to this case. If you wish, ask about it on another thread.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,444
ptsb has issued a statement

Statement by permanent tsb

permanent tsb has welcomed today’s decision by two customers to accept the offer the bank made to them last week of approximately €61,000 in redress and approximately €6,000 in compensation as part of its current Mortgage Redress Programme.

A permanent tsb spokesman said:

“We welcome the fact that the customers have agreed to accept the original offer made to them by the bank last week.

Our programme is designed to make it as easy as possible for customers to receive compensation and redress upfront and we want all impacted customers to receive this compensation and redress as soon as possible.

This is explained in the letters and customer guide that were sent to impacted customers as well as on the bank’s website.

We particularly welcome the public clarification that any impacted customers can accept their compensation and redress immediately and still appeal for more compensation through the appeal panels established as part of the Mortgage Redress Programme, or even take the matter to the Financial Services Ombudsman or the Courts if they wish.”

In the case that was before the High Court today, the following should be noted:

· Last week, as part of the Mortgage Redress Programme, the bank offered the customers redress of approximately €61,000 in respect of interest they had overpaid and separate compensation of approximately €6,000.

· Today, the customers agreed to accept the offer that the bank made to them last week.

· It is not correct to state that permanent tsb demanded the customers must accept its offer of compensation of approximately €6,000 before it would repay the approximately €61,000 in interest overpayments. This was never the case.


· As part of the Mortgage Redress Programme, the bank asks customers who have been offered redress and compensation to complete and return an instruction form so that the bank knows which account customers want the redress and compensation monies paid into.

· permanent tsb would encourage impacted customers who have received letters and have queries in relation to the offer to contact the dedicated permanent tsb team that is available to deal with such queries or to go to permanent tsb’s website for more information.

· The customers’ application has now been adjourned.
 

baltic

Registered User
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"You may return the instruction forms to us to avail of the tracker rate mortgage and/or to direct us to adjust your mortgage account and to pay the redress and compensation amounts to you and still choose to appeal these issues in due course without having to return any money to permanent tsb."

In my view, PTSB is merely stating the obvious. They are stating that you can accept the offer and appeal.
However, of course anyone can appeal, PTSB doesn't have to state that. But, by appealing it doesn't mean that you will win.
There is an argument that you are appealing an offer that you validly accepted.
 
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